Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Lead

Does anyone know if lead is available in a... well, you know how you can buy aluminum foil? Is there such a thing as lead foil? And could you buy it at a Home Hardware or a Building Supply store? And if so, what would you ask for? Lead foil?

(Do you think anyone will guess what I might need lead foil for? Am I giving too much away about my latest story attempt? )

Thanks all.

ML (who is off to watch the hockey game now. Go, Edmonton!)

I haven't heard of it. I asked my husband and he said he hadn't heard of it either.

Maybe someone else has though? Lead is kind of a dirty metal isn't it, I don't know if it could be fashioned into something as thin and delicate as "foil". But I'm definitly not an expert.

-- DJ

You can buy lead foil here

According to the website "Clean and easy to use lead foil can be cut with utility knife or scissors. The chemical content of the 0.006, 0.015 and 0.030 thickness is 95.75% lead... The chemical content of the 0.040 thickness is 99.99% pure virgin lead."

Yeah Vicki!

The only problem is, I would suspect it might be a controlled substance. Lead is pretty toxic stuff, and the primary use of lead foil would be for nuclear shielding.

*grin* You could always contact the company and ask if they sell to the general public.

Thanks for the efforts, DJ.

Thanks for the site, Vicki.

And thanks for the heads up, Rivka. I sent an email to the site to find out if they sell to individuals. But if I suddenly have the RCMP busting down my door, wondering why I need lead foil, I'm going to expect all of you to vouch for the fact that a Kryptonian won't feel the effects of kryptonite if it's wrapped in lead foil .

ML

Do let us know what they say, please. I find myself oddly curious.

I used to use lead pellets in chemistry experiments to make solder as an exercise. I doubt tough that they would sell it to the general public though since the use of lead is not common any more. Nuclear plants use it only to line the reactor to prevent any raidation leaking out.

Just tell them that you need to block out the CIA's satellites. I'm sure they'll understand.

BTW, if you have trouble getting lead foil in sheets, it seems that it's also readily available in tape form . According to this site , there are even some fairly mundane reasons for wanting it:

Paul

P.S. Just saw the post above. There are other reasons for wanting lead foil. For one thing, it's commonly used in doctor's offices. Especially dentists, since they take a lot of X-rays. The first tape site I linked to above also mentions its uses for electromagnetic shielding. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some radio stations use it to insulate the building from the intense signal of their own broadcast tower. And, of course, the people who manufacture lead tape would need the foil, too. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons.

P.P.S. In L&C's world, lead foil purchases might be a little more closely monitored, since it can also be used to block out Superman's X-ray vision. Not illegal, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if some law enforcement agencies found themselves wondering why certain people would want to do that.

Lead is used in making stained glass. I check a craft supply store online and you can buy what they call "lead came". It comes in several metals - the came is the metal between the different pieces of glass. So don't image it would be that hard to buy lead.

Is it public knowledge that lead blocks Superman's vision, though? I thought he tried to keep his weaknesses hush-hush, so that fewer people *could* use it against him?

I guess he could just let law enforcement people know...but then again, that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, because a) People who *do* have legit reasons for lead would be curious as to why they're suddenly under scrutiny and b) as we've all seen, bad guys like to lurk in respectable positions in order to get hush-hush information like what substance could prevent Superman from seeing them.

Just a thought.

Bethy

PS Glad you're working on a story, ML! And it really is fascinating what you can learn on a message board devoted to a tv show -- I never knew lead was used for so much stuff! :p

It would be general knowledge that Superman cannot see through lead, because of the very fact that it is *lead*. Superman has x-ray vision, that is how he sees *into* things. X-ray does not penatrate lead. That's why hospitals and exam rooms lay lead-lined pouches across patients when they x-ray them. To protect the rest of their bodies from the rays.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I had always assumed. I figured if someone knew Superman couldn't see through lead, that it was because they knew you couldn't x-ray through lead. In fact, I was counting on that premise for a few minor points I've made about lead-lined objects in the story I'm posting right now "Help Not Wanted" (a shameless plug I know).

So correct me if I'm wrong - but this is what I thought.

But Superman's vision cannot actually involve x-rays! Otherwise the cancer rates (and other medical problems) in those around him would be absolutely horrific!

I always assumed that "x-ray" was metaphorical, not actual.

I don't know. I remember reading a fanfic where Lois was afraid for Clark to use his x-ray vision about Laura, since they didn't know if it put out any radioactive effects.

I remember reading something that said there were some *effects* but not much, it was pretty negligible.

Someone else have a take on this?

Lead sheet is still widely used for sealing roofs, especially slate roofs, for lining roof gullies to take water down to normal gutters, etc. and can be purchased in lots of different thicknesses, rolls of different widths, etc.

An article on some of the uses is here

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/roof/leadroof.htm

I have no trouble buying smaller quantities as a laboratory chemical - it's available from every chemical company I deal with.

The main problem with the stuff is weight, it's heavy and a bit expensive, but there's no difficulty getting hold of it.

Thanks for all the great information. It was very helpful. I like the lead foil tape idea, Paul. That might be the easiest thing to use to wrap a clip for a gun (uhh... oops, that might be too much information. Forget I said that).

Anyway, I'll let you know if I get an answer back from the lead foil company. (Even though it appears that question has already been answered by Marcus).

Thanks again, everyone.

ML

One additional thought on this - it's the sort of thing that anyone who deals in or recycles scrap metal is likely to have around.

Amongst other things lead is one of the main components of car batteries, though handling them is a little tricky since there are other chemicals and acid fumes. It occurs to me that I've got several pounds weight in old wargaming miniatures (mostly new ones are pewter now). Any firing range is likely to pull pounds of it from the back stops whenever they're replaced. Assuming that the school labs where I work are typical, most schools will have some of the thicker foil around, it's used to make electrodes and in some chemistry experiments. The stuff we have is about 0.5mm thick, easily cut with scissors and folded without tools.

Even if you couldn't get that, you can melt lead in an iron saucepan on a domestic cooker, though you'd really want a good extractor hood, just pour it onto a flat heatproof surface to make a thin sheet of the stuff.

from what i remember...
]
no criminal would use a car battery to get any lead they needed, as the lead is used to contain highly concentrated sulfuric acid, if any of this got in contact with your skin... well you would be spending a lot more on plastic surgery from the intense chemical burns then whatever you saved by getting cheap used batteries...

as well the lead itself is toxic

also from metropolis... i seam to remember that a lot of the bulidings were coated in lead paint from the 40's, or lead lined bomb shelters were used alot... so it never seemed to be a problem for the villains to get the lead they needed, whether or not they knew of its interactions with SUPERm (Kryptonite and vision)


Lead sheets and pellets are fairly common in school chemical laboratories...
Lead oxide... is a white powder... formerly used in household paints, and on furniture such as cribs etc... although not useful in protecting from xrays themselves (as it is not a dense structure but fine powder like chalk), but in terms of SUPes, i seem to remember that they were not xrays themselves, but the term was just a euphemism for some fairly complicated method of Supes changing the wavelengths of light...he "chooses" to see

i dont think supes would use real xrays on people/in public... the dangers are too great...especially near or around lois, baby or not, as the higher the exposure to xrays, the higher the risk... that is why it is ok for an individual to get the odd xray, but the clinician stands behind a lined wall, as 400xrays in one year is all you need to supposedly attribute a cancer from xrays.

Well, Beethoven, I'm not sure about the LnC canon, but I do know that in the comic world, it has been established that Clark's eyes do not emit X-rays when he uses his X-ray vision. It's not as if he's actually sending a beam of X-rays into people. Think of it as his eyes being able to pick up different wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum than human eyes can do. For example, I imagine that if our eyes were sensitive to certain wavelengths of infrared light, we might be able to "see into" other people's bodies, just like Clark can do.

Anyway, the point is that Clark is never harming anyone when he uses his X-ray vision.

Ann

X-ray vision is treated to the writer's convienience. It's established that it's not harmful to humans, but he has used it to erase film when it suited him (and the writers) to do so.

Best theory I can think of is that he's seeing into the x-ray spectrum, picking up on background radiation or something. But that doesn't explain why he can see in color. The film thing, though, could be explained by an act of will. That, as with heat vision, he can force his eyes to emit particles when he wants.

Paul

I always thought it WAS the heat vision when he destroyed film. But thinking back, I guess it was the vision-gizmo special effect, not the heat-ray effect.

Eh. The heat vision makes more sense.

X-rays aren't particles, no? Unless we're referring to photons as particles, I guess.

most physicists will argue adamantly that photons are particles...

i personally always found this bit of theory beyond my grasp of quantam mechanics...

but i do know the theory... just find it hard to conceptualise...

Actually, physicists insist that photons should be regarded as both waves and particles. That's the beauty of the quantum world. I don't understand it, because I'm a space buff, not a quantum buff, so I prefer the macrocosmic world over the microcosmic one. But I do remember having an experiment explained to me. A physicist "shoots" a discreet photon at an impenetrable metal plaque containing two narrow, parallel slits. The single photon will pass through both slits simultaneously, creating an interference pattern of interacting waves on the other side of the plaque. This proves that the photon has wave-like qualities. I know that other experiments prove that photons behave like particles.

X-rays are photons which have both particle-like and wave-like qualities, just like visible light. What separates X-rays from visible light is that X-rays have a wavelength that is much shorter. Because of their shorter wavelengths, X-rays contain much more energy than visible light. The more energy a photon contains, the shorter its corresponding wavelength will be. But why do high energy levels correspond with short wavelengths?

Imagine a hill. Let's say that the hill is a mile long and a hundred feet high. Now imagine, however, a high, sharp cliff, a hundred feet high and a hundred feet long. How many times could you fit such a cliff along a distance of a mile? Imagine that you could line up hundred-feet-long cliffs along a line a mile long. You would get very many "peaks" along this mile-long line. Compare it with the original hill, where you get just one peak per mile. The hill could be considered a wave with a long wavelength and relatively low energy. The cliff could be considered a short wavelength with high energy.

To me, one of the absolutely amazing things about reality is that light and sound "does not exist", in a way. Imagine a colorful flower, for example a very red rose. Did you know that "red" color doesn't exist? What makes this rose look red is that when white light hits it, the rose will absorb almost all the white light and just reflect the comparatively long, "red" wavelengths, whose wavelength is about 700 nanometers. When our retinas are struck by electromagnetic waves whose wavelengths are 700 nanometers, our brains will respond by saying "red!". But "red" exists inside our brains, not outside them - outside there are only electromagnetic waves with certain wavelengths. Sounds and music are just the same - our ears pick up waves with certain wavelengths, though much longer than 700 nanometers, and our brains will respond by saying "sound".

So how does Superman see color, Paul? Assuming that, like us, his eyes have receptors for blue, green and red light, he will only see the same colors as we do, all within a wavelength range of 400-700 nanometers. Superman can't possibly "see" X-rays in color. X-rays don't have color, because our brains wouldn't know how to interpret such short wavelengths as color. For comparison, imagine two bath tubs, one filled with nice warm water and one filled with cold water. Could you decide which tub contains warm water just by looking at the water? No, you couldn't, because warm water (not steaming hot water) looks just the same as cold water. Our eyes can't tell the difference. You have to touch the water to judge its temperature. So don't ask me how Superman would judge different "shades" of X-rays, but he wouldn't "see" the difference as color.

As for Superman superhuman abilities, I guess it doesn't do too much good to try to explain them scientifically. After all, if they made scientific sense, don't you think that NASA or someone else would have come up with a flying man already?

Ann

well im no physicist... im a biologist...
or medical scientist as i study neuroscience and pharmacology. (the science of drugs as oposed to a liscence to sell them)

what i do know is abouut the wavelngths and vision
it is to do with three types of receptors responding to different wavelentghs in different proportions... just like the old analogue tvs use red/green and blue lights to create the whole spectrum (digital screens are different somehow, but i dont knwo the mechanics) our brians mix the three different ratios of responcces to whichever wavelength we see to give us unique colours

i supose Supes could have a range of receptors to see xrays in the same way that insects have a range of receptors to deect different uv wavelengths, seeing the colours differentlly to us but still have higher visual accuity than non-primate mammals (wholonly have 2 types of receptors)... but it is hard for us to imagine.

brain structures which alternate attention and conscious perception are perfectly able (if given the sensory receptors) to be able to alternate between percieving xray and the visual range of wavelentghs in our visual system (called visual light or something). this would happen in a similar way to a normal person (not supes) differentiating between voices in a crowd, or instruments playing in an orchestra (i am also a violinist).

I promised to let you all know if I heard back from Atlantic Nuclear regarding the purchase of lead foil. Anyway, they finally emailed me saying: "We do not sell to individuals."

So I guess that answers that.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. They have been very helpful.

ML

EDIT: Oops. I just reread the email and it says "We do sell to individuals." That stupid dyslexia of mine is acting up again.

Actually, photons are neither waves nor particles, although they have characteristics in common with both.

You are of course right that photons are neither particles nor waves, Rivka. They are denizens of the microcosmos which can't be defined or explained using words describing the macrocosmos.

The microcosmos is so fundamentally different from the macrocosmos that the laws that guide the macrocosmic world often don't apply in the microcosmos at all. Therefore, we can't use the same terms to talk about about photons, quarks, leptons, gluons and various other denizens of the microcosmos as we do when we talk about flowers, dogs, hurricanes, grains of sand and breakers at the sea, for example.

This doesn't mean that anything goes in the quantum world, however: the laws guiding the microcosmos are every bit as mathematically stringent as the laws guiding the world that we can sense.

I was just trying to point out that X-rays are no more particle-like than other electromagnetic waves with longer wavelengths and lower energy.

Ann

Very true.

Somehow, my students keep claiming otherwise on their tests.