Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Crossover fanfiction - the good and the bad

I'm not sure if this is really the right place to discuss this. These are just comments/thoughts/observations about crossover fic I've read across various fandoms. I am trying to get a good handle on what *not* to do when writing crossover fic - right now I'm thinking of possibly, maybe, in a hundred years, writing a LnC/Scarecrow & Mrs. King one.

I have no real plot. I can't decide whether I want to go with the actual time frames the shows aired or compress it to make LnC happen right after SMK went off the air.

Making characters from opposite shows related is always a tenuous thing. It's needed sometimes for the story to work. Since we have a shared actress here, and I believe that neither Dotty nor Ellen was given a maiden name and we know that Dotty has lots of family that making them sisters would not stretch credulity too much.

Closeness. If I do decide they are related, it still must be handled carefully. I have seen numerous crossovers wherein the cousins (usually cousin is the relationship used) are really close and it doesn't always synch up to the shows (after all, wouldn't the characters metnion cousins they are this close to). Particularly in this case, the idea that they would be close is silly. If the real time frame is used they are 17 years apart in age, even if the timeframe is compressed, it's still 11 years - and when they didn't grow up in the same place at all.

This can be an even worse problem when the characters aren't related. It's disconcerting to see characters emotionally opening up and sharing details of their romantic relationships after knowing someone three days.

It's a very delicate balance. You obviously want the characters from each show to get some kind of feel for the other characters. You *might* want a secret revealed (like Clark being Supes or Lee and Amanda's seceret marriage). But it has to be done in a feasible fashion. No one's going to share their deepest secret for no real reason.

Relationship advice - I cannot tell you how many crossover fics I've read where characters from one show fix the relationship woes of the other characters. This is very sticky to me. The characters have to be in character. While certainly we all know characters who would butt in and try to fix things, how many would do so after knowing the other parties only a few days? They seem to be saying what the author wants to say instead of what the character would really say. I've decided that if I write my fic, I will not have anything like that. Relationships will reflect what is on-screen at that time-period and will be "in continuity" if you know what I mean.

The hardest part, though, may be how the characters interact with each other. Obviously, we don't know how Lee and Amanda would react to Lois & Clark because we never saw that happen. But, if we go the route of them not being related, it seems a safe bet that they would not want reporters investigating the case they are working on. And Clark and Amanda would probably get along better than Lois and Amanda. It's likely the IFF (sans Amanda) would be wary of Superman at first - it's wise to be wary of someone with that much power. And Clark might be wary of government agents, given his run-in with Trask. Lois might be verbally disparaging of government abilities (the president was replaced by a Clone) either because she really believes it or because they're just annoying her. The thought of how difficult it would be to make the crossover realistic in character reactions and keep the characters from being hated by fans of the other fandom (because Show B's characters insulted/didn't like Show A's characters and vice versa) is daunting. Obviously in the end I'd like mutual respect, and maybe even a "you can count on us if you ever need us" type of thing, I don't want bosom buddies forever.

Anyway, I'd like contributions from readers on what you like/dislike in crossover fanfic both for LnC specifically and for crossover fanfic in particular.

I've never been a big fan of Xovers and it's mostly because I usually feel that at least one set of characters is poorly dealt with in the Xovers I've read over the years. Authors never seem to be able to give both sets (in two-way Xs) equal time on paper and I usually end up feeling one set was concentrated on and one set was short-changed.

This problem, for me, gets even worse, of course, when the author tackles Xovers with more than two shows involved.

There have been exceptions, of course. One of the best Xovers I ever read was Becky Bain's Timeless, which matched LNC with Beauty and the Beast. I didn't even watch B&TB, yet she made me feel as though I knew the characters and definitely made me care about them. Plus, it was just a beautiful story.

So that's my beef with Xovers - for what it's worth.

LabRat

You have a point there about equal time. I don't like a fic to be hugely disproportionately divided. But I don't need them be exactly even. I'm fine with 60/40 or even 65/35 on occasion. Quality of characterization is more important to me.

Of course, the probable reason I'm okay with the uneven page distribution is that I only read crossover fics where I like both shows and would be okay reading fic from either fandom by itself (excepting Quantum Leap - I only read crossovers for QL).

If I were doing a SMK/L&C crossover, I think I'd make it a time-travel thing. Maybe Tempus was fiddling with the US Treasury or something, so L&C go back to the late 80s to head him off (physical travel, not soul-migration, which, let's face it, is pretty silly). L&C are in DC without any local contacts, and Lois remembers, didn't her mom have a sister here? So they look up Amanda and have some casual interaction. Meanwhile, Lee & Amanda are looking into whatever it is that Tempus is doing, so they keep tripping over each other in investigating it. Lots of mutual suspicion, etc, but eventually they make a rough partnership and work together to take Tempus down.

I can just see Lois talking to Lee. "So... secret identity, huh? Have you told Amanda yet?"

Then Lee laughs and says, what kind of relationship could they have if he was keeping that kind of secret from her???

Or something <g> Those are just the thoughts that bubbled up -- I'm not going to write it, so if any of this sparked your muse, I hope you'll run with it

Although in general, yes; it's hard to do a crossover when you have to give all those people meaningful things to do, interacting while staying in character, etc. Usually at least one side gets short shrift.

But it can be done. And I'd be interested to read it

PJ

That would be really interesting, but I hate to steal Becky Bain's idea. (I agree about the soul-migration, BTW).

I like that idea, except I can't see why they'd look up Dotty - she wouldn't know who they were and she'd be unlikely to have any information they could use.

Now that sounds interesting. I can see each side telling the other to stay out of it. And seeing the IFF try to figure out just who Tempus is and what he's trying to do would be great. Not too long after they'd be trying to find out who Lois and Clark were. Meanwhile, Lois and Clark have lots of information, but might be unwilling to share or perhaps unable to share without telling an unbelievable tale.

What secret identity? (he has a codename, but no cover identity) I'd think Lois and Clark would know from the get go that Amanda and Lee are working together.

Well, you've definitely given me some things to think about. If I did it that way I have to decide what Tempus' plan was (well, it's prevent Utopia from coming to be and cause mayhem, but by what method?) and why he came to this particular time-frame.

Also when to set it? Probably fouth season for SMK. After they're together, but before the marriage. For Lois & Clark, probably after they are married, after "Meet John Doe" but before the finale.

I write a LOT of crossovers, mostly Buffy-related. Lately I've tended to write stories that don't involve close relationships between the main characters of the different shows / books / whatever. I tend to think of them as "outsider" stories, where the main characters are outsiders getting a glimpse of the life style of the characters from the crossover, and sometimes making huge mistakes in their interpretation of events. It's a way of telling the story that lets you control how much influence the two halves of the crossover have on events.

For example, one story was a Buffy / CHiPs crossover, which was simply one CHiPs character trying to work out what was really going on in Sunnydale, but never actually finding the answers. Another had a character from another show sitting in a restaurant and watching three Buffy characters, and drawing some ironically wrong conclusions from what she sees.

Even when they interact I try to limit the flow of information; in an L&C crossover I certainly wouldn't have anyone else know Clark's real identity, and I wouldn't give Lois and Clark any information that wasn't immediately obvious.

Writing this way works pretty well for me; I'm not saying that it's going to be everyone's ideal method, but it avoids a lot of problems.

Re. the time travel idea in earlier posts - it is probably a VERY bad idea for Lois and Clark to interact with anyone who is likely to have an effect on their own lives. That's the way to get nasty paradoxes, and I'm sure that Clark would realise it.

I've certainly read a number of fics that work the way you describe your crossovers - usually shorter fics, though. Frequently hilarous, when they draw all the wrong conclusions. If I were going that route, though, I'd have to concentrate on the SMK characters, and then LnC fans probably wouldn't care too much for it (I think Superman's arrival from the IFF perspective would be interesting). My biggest exception to that would have Ellen visiting Dotty and Amanda during "Sex, Lies and Videotape" and would be humor.

I don't mind the time-travel a bit and you can get of paradoxes easily enough. You can just operate under the "it did happen so it will happen" method of time-travel, which has been used any number of works of fiction. Probably have Lois & Clark use fake names if I went the route of Lois being related to Dotty - not sure otherwise. All but definitely keep Clark out of The Suit, unless absolutely necessary.

No one would find out Clark is Supes. Amanda as an agent would be easy enough to figure out, IMO. Especially if you had super-hearing or x-ray vision. Or heck, if even you realized she and Lee were trying to stop Tempus.

I for one absolutely adore crossovers if they are done well (and like anything else, they can be done badly). There's a fine line the fic author has to walk between keeping the characters IN character and also doing whatever it is he hoped to get out of the characters crossing over. I am currently working on a crossover between Buffy and Highlander that is going to end up being a trilogy (and a massively long one at that). The first part was about 120 pages on MS Word (single spaced) and the still unfinished sequel is even longer than that. What makes this particular story work so well is that the Buffy and Highlander universes fit in together so nicely. Both have a watcher's council and neither is it out of the realm of possibility for demons or vampires to exist. I guess if you want to go with a Lois and Clark crossover you would have to come up with a plausable reason WHY the characters are interacting and either have the characters from Scarecrow and Mrs. King to be older (and thus now in the L&C timeline) or go with timetravel or something else to put them back in the previous one. I have been trying to come up with a good idea for an L&C/Remington Steele crossover for a while now, simply because I find Lois and Laura to be so similar in personality and circumstance that I think it would be interesting to see them interact...especially since they ARE both so similar and yet choose to fall in love with two COMPLETELY different types of man. Anyway, good luck with it and I hope it turns out well!

You've got to let me know when that one's done.

Yes, Lois and Laura are similar. Both have fears of abandoment. Both are obsessive about chocolate (Laura worse). Both are the kind that have to be out there doing stuff and achieving things. Laura wanted to be a reporter for a while before she changed her mind to private detective, right?

However, I don't think Lois could ever, in a million years, allow someone else to take credit for what she's done on a routine basis.

The two are so alike, but their romances (I don't mean the men, but the relationships themselves) are so different, it's really neat.

I've read good and bad crossovers. There are some that are done poorly, with the characters acting, well, out of character, or just seems so odd that it doesn't work. There are others, however, where everything just meshes so well, or has enough oddity in both, that it works. I'm currently reading an SG1/Harry Potter crossover... normally, it's something that would scare me, but the author is doing it so well, that I can believe it.

And I'm just going to toss this in here... James, consider this your nag of the day.

Yes, Laura wanted to be a journalist before she became a private investigator. Both have immense trust issues, both have had their fathers leave at a young age, both had men in their lives prior to their current love interests who ditched them (Laura was engaged to a man named Wilson who left her because she was a little too 'wild' for him, leaving her to become much more reserved and cautious and Lois of course had Claude who stole her story). Both had the SAME MOTHER The same actress played both Laura's and Lois' mother. Both had major issues with their mothers. Both were in love with a man who had another identity that they weren't aware of (Lois and Clark/Superman and Laura who loved Remington but never knew his true identity as he was a con man prior to their meeting...to his credit he didn't know his real name either). Both had to make it in a 'man's world' however they could (though you're right in the respect that Lois would never let someone else take credit for her work.

Oh and both had love interests that got between the established cannon couple...and they were very similar too! Lois had Dan Scardino coming between her and Clark and Laura had Anthony Roselli (who looked somewhat like Scardino come to think of it)

You're right about their relationships being very different, but I think that's what makes the prospect of a crossover rather fascinating. Anyway, if I do manage to get a good idea for it I will definitely post it. In the meantime you gotta do the same if you can get your Scarecrow & Mrs. King/L&C fic off the ground

The same actress played Laura's mother and Lois's so just like the start of this thread they could be related.

It's obvious that what we have here is a set of estranged triplets each of which had a daughter.

The question is which of the three digs out the fact that they have unknown cousins.

Want to give a pointer to it?

BTW, if anyone has found any L&C crossover fic not listed here, please let me know. I just found a crossover with Starman here
and am about to read it.

I'm especially interested in crossovers involving only one other fandom.

Sure! The author is Neuropsych and the first story is The Harry Situation . She's currently in the middle of writing the second story, linked on the author page.

I'm not a cross-over fan, and so don't usually manage to finish them, but here's two that work well - Zoomway's short X-files crossover: Lois and Clark Meet the X-Files , and Becky Bain's Beauty and the Beast crossover: Timeless - she captures the characters of both shows really well, and it's a very strong story - long though.

c

Another Harry Potter / Stargate crossover is Crumpets Aren\'t My Style , which has an author who obviously thinks BIG - at one point you get Harry doing a better impersonation of a god than the Go'auld who has captured him!

nevermind...

I know I'm getting too obsessed with crossovers now. I was just envisioning a crossover between Lois & Clark and Jem and the Holograms. I have no idea what it would be about - the secret identities just got me. If you think the LnC triangle is something - Jem's trumps it completely (imo).

Jem and the Holograms... dear me, how long has it been since I used to watch this show? Eleven, twelve years? It hasn't been on TV ever since. I loved it, though.

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Me too. Renting dvds from netflix now, so that's why it's on my mind. Kimber's still my favorite, even though I didn't think she would be.

I'm really enjoying rewatching. It's got consistent characterization, and even teh bad guys have motivation. Of course, I never outgrew cartoons anyway.

tvnerdgirl, I know this thread hasn't been posted on in forever. But I was just watching Remington Steele last night, the ep Red Holt Steele, and I thought it illustrated the most interesting similarity (and dissimilarity) between Lois and Laura. Laura's house was blown up, and she was, of course, distraught. So much that was there meant so much to her. And I don't think that blowing up Lois' apartment would do that to her. But blowing up the Planet. . . we saw what it did. It put her adrift and vulnerable and such. I guess, after all, in the early day sof the show, the Planet was more home to Lois than anywhere else.

I'm not a fan of crossover stories. One reason being if you don't watch one of the shows then the stories very often either don't make sense are just aren't interesting. Also I find that most crossover stories have dealt with shows I never cared for - ie. X-Files and Buffy. I know both were popular but I just didn't care for them. So to me half of the characters are unknown and not interesting.

From the few I have read I also have to agree that one set of the characters usually comes off better than the other. Also there have been a couple of crossovers I've read that the show included other than LnC seemed to be just a cameo appearance. They mainly seemed to be included as a reason for having Lois and Clark investigating something that they might not be involved in otherwise. Felt the stories would have worked fine without trying to specifically tie it to another show.

But FanFiction is about what you enjoy writing about so to each his own. There seems to be an audience for most everything. Also we are all free to skip crossover stories if we wish. So I generally do because I just don't care for them.

Cross - over stories can be enjoyable if you know both shows and like both shows. If you don't like both shows, then it's a lost cause.

Would have to disagree here (sorry, Nancy ).

Going back to my first post on this one, one of the best Xs I've ever read was Becky Bain's Timeless . I had never watched Beauty and the Beast and had only the sketchiest of knowledge about the characters, but Becky's story made me care as much for them as for Lois and Clark and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

So, I'd tend to say, give it a try, even if you don't know half the source. You may regret it. But then again, you may read a really good story.


LabRat

I enjoyed it, too, and I'd never watched a single ep of B&B. What Becky did was treat the B&B characters as original characters rather than as fanfic characters. In fanfic, we don't have to describe characters or settings, explain backgrounds, etc. because the readers already know them. That seems to be the way most people handle cross-overs--assuming that the readers know both TV shows well. But when the readers don't know the other show in the cross-over, that method of writing can result in a "who cares?" attitude on the part of the readers. If you're posting in this fandom, you can get around that problem by describing the other TV/movie characters the same way you would any other characters that the readers had never met. It's been some years since I read "Timeless," but I seem to recall that Becky also kept us in L&C's POV for a long time so we had a chance to meet the B&B characters through familiar eyes.

You're right, LabRat, some people can explain the characters well, and make it enjoyable even if you don't know the show. I was speaking in broad generalties, because most of the time there are lots of assumptions that the reader knows both shows. At least that's been true for most of the cross-overs I've read. I actually like cross-overs, but I'm selective with them. I do think I would have a hard time reading a cross-over if the other show is one that I really don't like though.

And yes, I've read Becky's story, too. It's very good.

I agree with both sentiments here. I have to say, though, that with fandoms like L&C, or HP, or BtVS, where there is more than one version of canon (i.e. movies, comics, books, shows, etc.), the assumption that all of the different genres in that fandom can be crossed at will is utterly ridiculous.

I do have to say though, that as long as a X-Over fic doesn't make me say to myself, "This is definitely a cross-over," or worse, "This is definitely a BAD cross-over," then I enjoy it.

I was actually assigned to GE a nice Batman/L&C cross-over. There was more "other stuff" than either Batman or L&C in this particular fic, but I had fun GE-ing it.

An L&C fan is not necessarily going to have read the Superman comics (pre- or post-crisis), nor are they necessarily fans of the movies. Just as someone who has seen the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie might not have been interested at all in the much more serious, more occult-like television show.

Assuming that someone writing a fanfic can post a story somewhere dedicated to one corner of the fandom which is basically about another corner of the fandom (with possibly a few characterizations or settings in line with the first corner) is a bad assumption.

For instance, I've seen fics in the L&C Archives that are based on the comics--or even the movies--with the Lois & Clark in the fics being based on the show.

Some of these were quite enjoyable, but others I wouldn't read at all, because just by reading the descriptions, I thought that the authors were assuming that I'd know the basic Superman comic book "universe."

And if I wanted to read fanfic based on the movies (which I do love--except for III and IV), I'd find a Superman movie fanfiction website--not the Lois & Clark Fanfiction Archive. Know what I mean?

Heck, I didn't even know what "post-Crisis" really meant until last week when I was looking up something about Batman & Robin on Wikipedia!

/rant

I also think a crossover can only work if the author knows BOTH universes he/she is writing in extensively. For instance I would never cross L&C with something like Doctor Who because I only know the bare basic premise of Doctor Who (and even that gets confusing sometimes). But I would be willing to say cross L&C with like Charmed because I feel like I know both universes pretty well. If an author is writing a crossover and the author doesn't know much about one or more of the fandoms' their crossing or just thought it would be cool to cross a fandom he/she likes with a fandom he/she really doesn't care about or know about, then it shows and comes across half - backed.

Another thing is I agree with everybody else: A believeable crossover has to have the fandoms close together in time and space. That means for the most part, the characters have to live in the same time period (a common problem for Star Trek crosses) or if you want to cross Star Trek or Star Wars with another fandom, at least provide a way to make the crossover work that doesn't just absolutely destroy all sense of disbelief. Also crossing similarly themed fandoms work better than trying to work completely different fandoms.

I love crossovers, but I've read enough to understand why some people would rather run the other way when they see Crossover anywhere near a story.

To chime in here, and still be a little original instead of a "me too", I usually hate X-overs for all the reasons listed and with the one notable exception.

BUT, every once in a while, when it's a short, comedic X-over, I can get it. Marcus Rowland's Drabble X-over with Star Trek DS9 and LnC was quite clever.

Usually, it seems forced to me. I'm just really picky about fanfiction--there has to be a gap that seems to ask for writer intervention. For instance, I watch CSI:Miami and L&O:SVU sometimes, but you won't catch me anywhere near the fanfiction.

If I were able to watch Dr. Who, I think I might get into that fandom. It seems to lend itself. But, alas, I can't.