Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Some mixed feelings... any thoughts?

I was browsing around the Archive, and went to take a look at my own stories. And seeing all my stories together in a list gave me some mixed feelings. I thought I'd share them with you and see what you think.

Some of my stories (especially the first ones) are not good. I keep wondering "what was I thinking, writing this crap?" I've considered having them removed from the Archive (I already had the worst of them), but then my mind objects with "hey, I made the best I could at the time, so why should I be ashamed?" and "what if someone liked it and wanted to read it again? Miracles happen."

Others are good. (In my opinion, of course.) And that makes me think that putting them together with the bad ones underestimates them somehow. What if someone is randomly looking for something to read, stumbles on my name, reads the first story (which is one of the 'bad' ones) and decides s/he doesn't like my writing? (Selfish of me, isn't it?)

What are your thoughts on the subject?

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

Anna, you could do what I've done occasionally.

I re-read my own stories from a more experienced perspective from time to time, notice where I've made errors or where a section needs to be redone, and do just that. I've asked Labrat to replace the older version with the newer one more often than I like to think, and she's been very nice about it.

Why don't you take the stories that you think need to be re-worked, re-write them to your satisfaction and just have her replace them? That's a lot better than getting rid of the story. They should be on the Archive, not thrown away.

Nan

Please dont throw out your work. It's good to go back and compare, see how you have growrn. Make changes were needed, but dont throw your stories out I have a lot I havent read yet and dont want to miss anything.

Anna, I'm glad you've raised this issue.

Nan wrote
I've wondered about this. I'm really unhappy with my first story. I think the idea behind was a good one, but I think it needs major rewriting. I always thought that it was a bother for the EIC of the archives to change things on the archive.

Or is it just when I want to change some grammar things and verb tenses that have bothered me?

Labrat, what do you say?

gerry

Please do be aware, however, that this means extra work for the Archive staff. Not just in the replacing of files on the website, but if a story has been substantially reworked or added to it will perhaps need to be GE'd a second time.

So, while we are happy to do this favour for authors now and then, I wouldn't want to encourage every author out there to start flooding us with rewrites.

LabRat

No, of course not.

However, if it's a story the author feels strongly about, it would be worth it rather than losing the story altogether. It would be nice, however, for any of us doing it to be as sure as possible that it doesn't need GE-ing again. I've been careful of that every time I've asked, and I don't do it for minor errors.

Nan

For now, yes, I'd agree. Whether that would always be the case though is not so clear cut if it was seriously impairing our ability to get new stories onto the Archive or if our GEs were being loaded down with the extra work. We may in that case just have to make the sacrifice in order to ensure the Archive remains viable.

As, over the years, you've been the only author who's asked to have story files replaced, Nan, it hasn't impacted that much on the workload, so it hasn't been a problem.

However, if that were to change in the future, and we were becoming so overloaded with requests to replace files that it was clogging up the works or tying up GEs so that they couldn't work on anything else, then obviously we'd have to seriously rethink our policy on this one. At which time we'd probably need to have a serious debate about the best solutions.

We're nowhere close to that situation at the moment though. So, for now, I'd merely ask any author considering making such a request that you ask yourself long and hard if you really, really, really, absoutely cannnot bear <g> what's already on the Archive before you mail me asking to have a file replaced. I'd request it be a method of last resort, rather than one of first response.

For now, our policy remains the same and we'll try to accomodate such requests as we always have.

LabRat

I have a story on the archive that simply makes me cringe. I wrote it a long time ago and my writing skills have since, in my personal opinion, matured in leaps and bounds. I didn't really want to have the story removed because, like you said, somebody might enjoy it *somewhere*. I requested years ago that the story be removed and when they asked me if I was absolutely sure, I just didn't have the heart to go through with it.

So, after writing Waking a Miracle, my solution was to file my new story under a different name and leave the old one intact where it was. I was sure to state in the forward of the story that Aria was not, in fact, a new author, so the truly diligent reader could find my other stuff if he or she desired. This may also solve the potential for 'name stigma', whereby somebody reads a bad story and refuses to go on and find what might be a very good one under that same authorship.

I don't know how much more plausible this is for the archive staff than simply rewriting everything, but I suppose you could split your stories up under different pen names. It's a personal decision of course, but it's the one that worked the best for me when I was in a similar situation.

I do sympathise, Anna! I have stories up there which make me cringe with embarrassment. I wouldn't want to rewrite them - I'd want to delete them entirely! There are also stories - mostly long ones - which, when I look at them, make me long to edit them. Remove a lot of the over-wordiness. The POV switches, in earlier ones. The unnecessary speech and thought tags. The stilted dialogue.

But I don't. Why? Well, I don't ask for stuff to be taken down because, any time I've mentioned it, friends have told me not to. Because, as SHJ says, those awful ones are a 'historical record', in a way. A reminder of how I have grown as a writer. And - I'm sure this is true for other writers too - as soon as I mention a story which particularly makes me cringe, someone protests, "But I like that one!"

And I don't rewrite because, first, I don't want to create extra work for the Archive staff. As it's long stories I'd most want to edit, that would tie up a GE for a couple of weeks at least, time when she could be working on someone else's story. And anyway, I'd rather be expending my creative energy on something new, I guess!

So I'd let them be. The Archive headers show the upload date, so readers can see which stories were your early work and which are more recent. And, let's face it, who thinks their first story was their best work?

(Though I always tell Pam, whenever she cringes at the thought of her first story, that I love Getting Away From It All ! )


Wendy

This is something I've really wrestled too. You've got lots of company, Anna!

I rarely read my own stuff on the archive. I know if I do, I'll see all the things I could have done so much better. And I'll just be dying to get my hands on it. To rework, tweak, edit, add to, and delete like all get out.

My fear is that if I ever started down that path, I'd never get anything put back.

So, here's what I tell myself. (And it is through clenched teeth, sometimes, but try it on and see if it helps.)

It's kind of neat to be able to see the evidence of your progress as a writer. The archive is a real time capsule. If you follow it year by year, story by story, you can watch yourself growing and learning and all kinds of other good things. So, it's sort of nice you can look back and see how far you've come.

That's the approach working for me, and it's the reason Mayson Says the Magic Word is still there, along with all the head hopping in Lois Unbuttoned...

My two cents.

CC

But, see, I GEd Lois Unbuttoned, and I can't even say that I noticed the head-hopping. I was just so blown away by the lovely, sweet, WAFFy and funny story by this obviously hugely talented newbie writer.

See? No matter how bad you think a story is, there are always readers out there who like it...


Wendy

Absolutely true. I'd advise anyone wanting to replace a story, to think it over seriously first. I'm something of a perfectionist, and even I hesitate a long time before I make such a request. As I said, Labby has been very nice about it, but I'm very cautious about it. The very issues that she mentioned were what made me hesitate. I ask myself if it's something I can live with, and if I decide it is -- and there are *many* of those -- I leave it. Hopefully, it will be a long time before I do it again.

Nan

PS: And under no circumstances will I *ever* ask for a GE to waste time having to check it over again. <g>

Yes, good topic, Anna! Count me amongst those who cringe at the thought of all those horridly written stories published under my name. Part of me would love to get rid of them, especially a lot of the nfic stories. Ugh! However, as others have said, they do serve as a record of your growth as an author. Just think of all those poor composers, artists, writers, film makers, poets, etc, who have no option but to live with the fact that their early works are out there for all to see and hear. They'd probably like to get rid of them, but I imagine that they tell themselves pretty much the same thing we're saying: that's where I was then, and this is where I am today.

And just imagine how encouraging it is for new authors (or poets, composers, etc) to see that the artists they admire most and perhaps aspire to emulate were once just as inexperienced as they are.

Yvonne

Anna, I sympathize with you completely! I was in a position like yours a few years ago. I had about 15 stories on the archive, and after re-reading them, I realized that they were horrible. Absolutely horrible. I didn't know that dialogue had to be in different paragraphs, for starters. And it just gets worse from there. One of my stories even introduced a Mary Sue character. So I decided to ask Kathy (you can tell how long ago this was, because she was archive EIC at the time) to remove my stories from the archive. I did rewrite two of the original stories I had on the archive, and they because Trials of the Heart, which is currently on the archive. However, looking back at it now, I am again seriously considering rewriting it. I haven't even touched the other stories from that universe because I've really lost intrest.

I'm sorry to disagree. I have asked to have several files replaced in your tenure as EIC, LabRat. In fact, just last summer, I rewrote Final Forgiveness and The Newlywed show. I asked for them not to be GE'd because they were beta read by Tricia, an incredibly kind GE, and also for the same reason you said. I didn't want to take up a GE's time that could be better spent working on a new story. I think that if is my right as an author to do whatever I see fit with my own stories. If I want them removed, I should be able to have them removed. If I want to rewrite them, I should be able to replace the existing files. However, I do not think it is my right to demand another GE. I do not expect a prompt response to taking down or replacing a file, but I like that I do have the option to change my stories.

I took a long absence from FoLCdom, and I almost wish I would have thought to write under a different pen name! I always thought, through the years, that the reason people didn't read my stories was the bad first impression they got from my original stories. If they started reading on the archive with any of my older stories, they would have realized that I was a horrible writer. Hopefully, now that has changed since I have several Kerth nominations and, shockingly, even a win!

I am still thinking about rewriting some of my older stories. I mean my way older stories -- ones that were written in the '90's . . . okay, and FF2, which was finished in '01. Even though there are some things that still make me cringe about some of my newer, old stories, there isn't anything as majorly wrong as in my old, old stories, so I guess I will leave them as-is.

Just think, Anna, to make you feel better, I was the same age as you when I first started writing, but English was my native language . Think of how much better you are than I was!

- Laura

Fascinating topic, Anna. And yes, count me in among those who cringe at their former work as well (too many adverbs and speech tags, stilted dialogue, convoluted plots and so on). I usually avoid re-reading them as it really makes me want to delete them altogether, but sometimes I just have to - like right now, since I'm working on the long-postponed sequel to a fanfic I always considered as my better one... and now I re-read parts and think "ouch". But it's all part of the game. And hey, as some of you said, it proves that we improved, and that's a *good* thing!

Kaethel

Yup, for those taking note of such things, that should have read 'on a regular basis'. I can't see that it matters terribly - the point of my posts is that it's an infrequent thing that anyone asks.

Other than Nan's requests, it's been once in a blue moon. And even though Nan replaces her stories on a regular basis, it's a pretty irregular regularity <g> and also once in a blue moon. Which is why they barely register on the memory - especially when we're talking a year back.

Certainly, these are your right, Laura. My point is that it's when or if this right comes into conflict with the running of the Archive and the other priorities we have that we would have a problem. Our resources aren't infinite. If they were overwhelmed at some point in the future and we were forced to choose, between those two author's rights and our own priorities, we might have to say our priorities are new stories not existing ones and authors would then, at that point, have to make the choice to leave the story on the Archive or remove it. That would be up to them, I absolutely agree.

However, I reiterate that this is all just future speculation and we're nowhere at that point just now. For now, it's so infrequent a request that it's not a drain on resources and so we don't have to make that choice. For the moment, authors can have their files reworked.

All that I'm really requesting at this point is that authors are aware that this creates a little amount of extra work for Archive staff and factor some consideration for that fact into their decision. If they then decide that they absolutely need to have a file replaced, by all means email me with the request.

The less files we have to replace, the lower we can keep those numbers, obviously the better for all concerned. But I'm not at all unsympathic to authors in this regard. In fact, I had an example of it myself just last week when I pulled out some 15-year-old stories from another fandom and cringed when I saw the mistakes in them. Boy have I learned a lot since then! So I do understand the dilemma.


LabRat

Count me in as a cringer, Anna! There's a couple of stories under my name that make me shudder everytime I scour the Archive looking for something to read. But like the others said, it's all part of the game. For me, I jumped genres a couple of times before I realized that I a) liked writing comedy the best and b) could do it without wanting to throw my keyboard against the wall. God help us all if I ever attempt to write a story that's more than 6 pages. Folcdom would self-combust. So aside from cringing and wanting to yank them, everytime I see those other stories, they serve as a million and one reminders for me why I should stick with short comedies.


Jen

You can count me in as a 'me too' person, Anna. I'm not happy with some of my earlier stuff.

Fortunately, the truly awful earliest stuff I wrote is hidden away in another fandom. (And in print fanzines that have, with luck, mostly found their way into people's recyclers.)

Then there came some slightly better stuff, which was tucked away in fandom number two. (Some of those stories were on the internet, but I discovered recently that the archive it was in has disappeared. So, nobody is going to stumble across any of that on a dark night. Phew.)

Then comes my Lois and Clark stories...

Even though they are by no means the worst stuff I've written, there are things that, in an ideal world, I'd like to redo. But I almost certainly won't because:

1) I'm lazy. I wrote the stories. They're done and dusted, and I've moved on to other projects. (I hadn't really thought about it from the archivist's point of view before now, but that's an added incentive to do nothing! Thanks, Labby! You've made my day. )

2) My view is that it is very easy for a writer to second-guess him- / herself excessively. I know, for instance, that I can reread something I've written one day and think, "Ouch! Did I really put words together like that? It sounds awful!" But another time, I can find that I'm pleasantly surprised by something I've written.

Sometimes it'll even be the same story! Go figure!

3) Yes, in an ideal world, I want a story to obey all sorts of rules -- perfect execution of POV... perfect grammar... spelling... punctuation... and a fantastic plot that is woven together seamlessly and packs a huge emotional punch. Plus, I want it to be written in a style that I personally find engaging.

Usually stories (fan or pro) press some buttons for me, but not all. (There are, however, a number of stories on the archive that have had me reading into the small hours, desperately to find out what happens next.)

So in this not-quite-ideal world I'll settle for a story that has a plot and a premise that can make me forget my own personal checklist of perfection and that can make me love it despite the occasional bit of head-hopping, the occasional misplaced comma, and the dangling plot threads.

(Note that, for me, the plot comes first. I can cope with a bit of dodgy grammar if the plot is excellent, but a lousy plot in a perfectly executed bit of prose will have me reaching for the delete key.)

Thing is, what I love won't necessarily be what anyone else loves. I have a personal favourite among my stories that most people seem to have skipped over. Is it bad? is it very boring? Maybe, but I like it anyway. And then there is the story that I wrote in all seriousness that got nominated for a Kerth... in the best comedy category!

Taste, reading pleasure etc etc is incredibly personal and subjective.

Did I just wonder way off the point?

I guess what I'm saying here is, leave your stuff on the archive. There will be plenty of people who want to see it despite any misgivings you might have about it. Put your energy into your next story, and the one after that... and the one after that... and... Well, you get the point.

After all, the regular readers here are voracious for fresh material...

BTW, as an aside, I have to say, I hadn't thought about keeping stuff on the archive as a reminder of how writers develop over time. Interesting point.

Chris

It's been fascinating reading all of the responses! Thank you... and keep them coming!

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks like this. Of course, I'd bet that Wendy's worst stories are much better than my best ones.

(not trying to underestimate the rest of you FoLCs, but she gave me something

to prove my point with )

Many of you made the point about being able to see a writer evolve by reading their stories. Well, if I can judge using myself as an example (since I'm not that experienced a reader to base my judgement upon others) I'd say that it's true and that I definitely agree with you.

There comes the question, though:

Does a reader really want to see that? Is s/he interested in reading some random writer's work from the beginning till the end, just to see how they evolved? Or would they rather just have a selection of good stories to choose from? And... how does reading one of the worst works of some writer affect a reader's attitude towards that writer?

Speaking for myself, I give all writers a second chance. If I don't like one of some writer's stories, I have no problem trying another. Besides, sometimes writers I know and enjoy happen to write stories I don't like that much. But I don't know if my kind of attitude is the rule, or I just have low standards, or I'm just more tolerant than most people. In any event, I find it understandable that someone could read some writer's story, not like it, and then decide to ignore that writer completely from there on. It's not like they'd run out of other choices, with all those stories in the Archive.

So, what do you think? We're all on the same boat here, so I'd like to see your opinions.

Thanks, Laura! It does make me feel better

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

You wanna talk about cringing (btw, thanks, Wendy :p ), I recently found a printout of a story I'd written circa 1990. Let's just say, I've come a long way, baby! And yet, I can still see some elements of my style that have remained pretty much unchanged. I'm contemplating typing it all back into the computer and then posting it here, in original fiction, just to see what people think... not sure if I'll really be brave and/or industrious enough to do it... (all that typing!) but it's an interesting thought. Or egomaniacal, I'm not sure which

PJ

I agree with Anna about giving writers a second chance. I don't think I've ever dismissed an author after reading one poorly-written story. Oftentimes I'll check the submission dates and see if there's anything more recent that the person has written.

I had to resubmit one of my stories because the formatting when it landed on the archive was completely bonkers (some miscommunication between my version of Word and my GE's, I think). Upon rereading it, I discovered a couple of typos and word omissions. But I don't want to bother the archive by resubmitting it AGAIN just for those.

My hope is that any time we read any story on the archive, we forgive the occasional typo.

Amen to that. Your post made me chuckle, Mols, because I suddenly found myself remembering how it all used to be in the world of paper zines, waaaaaaaaaay before the internet.

I remember the normal method for many of the zines I submitted to was for the editor/publisher of the zines to manually retype submissions into the proper format for the zine.

Oh, the angst of having to trust someone else to type the thing just as you had. I remember, once, three entire scenes were missed out of my story. And, of course, it was impossible to fix such errors once they were out there and no way even to contact your readers to let them know something was missing. You just had to trust they figured it out for themselves and leave it at that. There was practically no communication between authors and readers back then too.

Just remembering that experience makes me twitchy to this day.

I'd forgotten all about that. LOL. My, but the internet is a wonderful thing. Makes life so much easier.

LabRat ( to the gods of the internet. You guys rock. )

<shameless self-promotion>
In the Original Fiction section, I've posted a story I wrote back in 1989... retyped from the printout, errors and all. For those of you who'd like to know just how bad at this I used to be It's called Mars Weekend .
</shameless self-promotion>

PJ
yes, I know, I'm bad

Given that I've only got the two, I can't speak too much to redoing old stories. I've found minor typos in my two that somehow made it past my own editing runs AND my GE, but that's life. Not worth anyone's extra work to take out that comma or insert that paragraph break.

As to author development, even professional authors are that way. I was reading Holly Lisle's website last night, and she mentions cringing at some of her first books to get published! Katherine Kurtz and Mercedes Lackey are among my favorites -- and there's definite development in their writing abilities. It's not that I enjoy seeing their development for itself -- I'd rather the whole series be well-written, which is why I'll probably buy the new rewritten versions of KK's original trilogy.

But it gives me hope. Hope that my writing might someday improve. And, as I'm dating a lovely lady who aspires to professional writing, it gives me some hope that even my favorite authors who are really successful started out with stilted dialogue and a shaky plot -- though I'm obviously biased, I think Emi's current work is at least as good as some of my favorites' first efforts.

I was thinking of doing this as well, but I'm working on a short science fiction story right now, and probably won't have the time to edit my old stuff for quite a while.