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Here's a general question.

I was taught that when you join two phrases with a conjunction (and, but, or), you should use a comma if the two phrases are independent, that is, can stand alone after removing the conjunction. If the second phrase is dependent - that is, wouldn't make sense if separated from the first - then you don't use a comma. Here's an example.

Lois went to the store, and she bought an entire case of chocolate crunch bars.

You use a comma after "store" because you can break this down into two separate sentences:

Lois went to the store. She bought an entire case of chocolate fudge crunch bars.

That versus this case:

Lois went to the store and bought an entire case of chocolate crunch bars.

You do not use a comma after "store" because you cannot break this down into two separate sentences:

Lois went to the store. Bought an entire case of chocolate fudge crunch bars.

Obviously these are very simplistic sentences, but they convey the basics of what I was taught.

However, I've notice that some people do not use a comma when joining two independent phrases, so I'm wondering if this rule is flexible or maybe outdated. Or is it just a matter of personal preference and consistency - if the writer is consistent, that's all that matters.

Any answers from our grammar gurus?

Lynn

Yvonne, you are correct that context can make a difference in terms of whether or not a relative clause is essential or non-essential. The two sentences I used were taken from an English grammar book as examples, for what it's worth. In many cases, the pronoun that you choose and the use of commas or not will turn the clause into essential or non-essential if that makes sense.

Lynn, the rule about commas with compound sentences is basically this: Use a comma before the conjunction (and, or, but);however, you may leave it out if the two independent clauses are both quite short, i.e. Lois sang and she danced.

Hope this helps.

Ann

I want to add something to the discussion of that/which/who(m) clauses.

Schoolmarm has given a succinct explanation of essential and non-essential clauses (though I also have doubts about that essential clause example. ) And the rule she gave for using that and which is the rule taught in US schools today, though I'm not certain whether it's a hard-and-fast rule or merely a de facto norm in the US as a whole.

However, the older rule, which is still in use in Britain and other countries, is that "that" may only be used to introduce an essential clause, but "which" may be used to introduce either type. The commas, not the pronoun, determine which type of clause it is. Sometimes punctuation can be the only difference.

The mare, which won the Grand National in 2000, had a promising foal last year. [non-essential clause; evidently the reader knows from context which mare is meant]

The mare which won the Grand National in 2000 had a promising foal last year. [essential clause; the reader wouldn't know which mare is meant without it]

"That" can replace "which" only in the second sentence.

So, for GEs editing fics written in UK English, you should leave the second type of "which" alone.

Meredith, the rules that I explained are "hard and fast rules" in American English. There are definitely some major differences in the use of relative pronouns between American and British usage. As you say, in either usage, the commas are what tell the reader if a clause is essential or non-essential. The "essential-ness" of a clause is definitely in the eye of the writer as you show with your two variations about the mare. Context is often what should tell the writer whether or not to use an essential or a non-essential clause. I would add that for writers who are struggling with the decision that they should consider whether or not the information in the clause is necessary to convey the "essential" meaning of the sentence. If it's just an extra, interesting side note, the clause is non-essential and needs commas and "which" or "who" in the US. If the information is necessary to convey your meaning, then use "that" or "who" (and you may use "that" for people in the US) and no commas.

Schoolmarm

Sorry if this is off topic but this thread reminds me of a joke:


How many writers does it take to change a light-bulb?

I'm not changing a DAMN THING !!

Allie - LOL!

And Amen!

Lynn