Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Grammar and you

ROTFL. A recent discussion of common grammatical errors on one of the JAG fic boards produced this link:


http://www.tomatonation.com/sincerely.shtml

Laura

LOL! Thanks for posting that link, Laura. I'm not sure how I missed that, but I'm glad you pointed it out. I'm a huge fan of Sarah's and her web site. (The site she references in the essay, Mighty Big TV, is now www.televisionwithoutpity.com and it's famous for its satirical recaps of popular television shows.) One of the recappers, Pamela Ribon (known as Pamie on TWP and on her own website www.pamie.com), wrote the very popular book Why Girls Are Weird, which I highly recommend.

On a side note, I loved this essay not only because she effectively explains so many common grammar mistakes, but because of her indignation. When I was editor of my university's newspaper, I would routinely receive applications riddled with typos, misspellings and grammar errors. Why in the world would I hire someone to be a writer - or god forbid an editor - if they can't be bothered to run spellcheck? Grammar, spelling and proofreading matter. I've said it once, I'll say it a hundred times. I cannot take someone seriously when they don't bother to take the time to think about what they are writing. Yes, everyone makes mistakes. And no, I don't expect formal writing in casual, personal emails. But if you want to be taken seriously - whether you are applying for a job, requesting a raise from your boss, soliciting donations for a charity, etc. - you MUST know how to write properly.

Stepping down off my soap box now, but it felt good to get that off my chest. <G>

Annie

Great article, thanks for sharing it, Laura. She pointed out several of my major grammar mistakes, that I am sure I knew the correct answer to in high school, but in my 5 years since taking an English class have somehow gone to the deep, dark recesses of my mind. I bookmarked the site for when I have those questions again!

I agree with Annie's opinion of the author's attitude! And with this . . .

Yes! I agree 100%.

To add to Annie's statement, students, never email your professor/teacher/teaching assistant, the person responsible for your grade, in this fashion:

(real email recieved 2 am, night before final exam)

Yo Laura

i dont no ne thing about ch 2, 6, 23, 25, 26, and 30. Mort's stuff. will they be on the final? plz no.

i need to grub 4 pts w/u on ex. 1, 2, 3. when can i c u?

tnx
(student's name removed)

Needless to say, when we had to determine this student's grade, and he happened to be on the borderline between C and B, he did not get bumped up because of this negative impression he left on me! I was his teaching assistant, not his buddy! There is a clear distinction. And, most importantly, I should not have to translate an email at 2 am!

To me it looked like:

Spanish word for I Laura (oh cool is that like I Claudius?)

Letters and numbers. Hard to read.

Jibberish.

letters.

student's name. Remember it because he fails. Too much work for me.

- Laura

ROTL! This thread was very fun to read! Thanks for the link, Laura. That was very funny! I used to be news editor for my high school paper and I couldn't believe some of the stuff my reporters would hand in to me. *grr*

Annie, I can sympathize a bit after my high school experience.

Laura, LOL! Your translation of that e-mail had me

This is a great thread. I enjoyed it!

Jana (who is LOLing after having to go back and edit this post to chance sypathize to sympathize.)

I'm glad grammar is important at least to some people. grammatical errors (which I encounter often, unfortunately) is pain to my eyes (and ears).

I use better grammar than so many people I know. My best friend used to write wonderful stories, and she used to brag about her perfect mark in English. She hasn't show me any of her works lately, and her grammar was FAR from being perfect even then, but at least she corrected her mistakes when I pointed them out then. Now she tells me that in emails and rushed notes it "okay" to have a minor mistake. And tells me to get a life. Ah, well, we'll see who gets published first. She still tells me she's a writer (and when I point out the fact that I'm one too, she says I'm not a real writer because I write fanfic and not original fiction- you have my permission to raid her house), but I would think a writer would watch their grammar whenever.

Thanks for the link, I really enjoyed reading this.

LOL, Laura, and Annie, I understand you both. I had to create a news broadcast script for English class with a group of other people, and each of us was going to write one or two stories for it. I volunteered to collect them and put them together. Half of them were full of incorrect grammar and the other half, I couldn't tell because it was all chatspeak. *sigh* and we're in grade 10.

Julie

LOL, Laura.

I did have two points I disagreed with, however. First, the author states that free of charge is incorrect. My dictionary agrees that free means "Costing nothing; gratuitous: a free meal". However, a second definition of free is "Not subject to a given condition; exempt: income that is free of all taxes." Applying this definition to the word "free", I would think that free of charge is not, technically, incorrect. [Note: would the author tell me that nothing can be "technically incorrect"? I suppose something is either incorrect or it is not.]

Secondly, no matter what anyone says, I will continue to write Lois'

- Vicki

Ah, Vicki, but Lois' is incorrect!


Wendy

PS: now, 'judgement/judgment' is where I would disagree with the author of this piece. In UK English, the normal spelling is 'judgement', but 'judgment' is used for legal purposes - ie the judgment in the case of Lane v Kent. I believe in the US the spelling 'judgement' exists in the legal context in the same way, but would need to be corrected by a lawyer... ML??

And then there's the other definition of "free" which is when something is unattached/not associated. If you can be "free of disease" (at least I think you can ) then something can be "free of charge."

My dictionary has a chunk of meanings for "free" but I guess my main point is, it doesn't have to have connotations of money. It can, in fact, be money-free!

I agree about the importance of proper grammar, or at least proper spelling, though... how does anyone expect to be taken seriously? That's one of the things I adore about this fandom, actually -- the GE's at the archive keep all our fanfic very clean, grammar-wise. As opposed to some of the horrors I've read over at fanfiction.net. <shudder> But even there, you have to have the story in halfway decent shape before you send it in.

PJ

Oh, I loved it! So indignant and so true. Anyone who sends me a job application that's not grammatically correct or contains spelling mistakes automatically gets sent to the end of the queue. Okay, so I'm in IT, which is a techy subject and not a literary subject, but a good IT worker is a good communicator, IMO. If you can't write decent English, you can't communicate effectively.

Yvonne

And, further on the subject of bad grammar, there is this article . Annie, you'll be particularly interested! Be aware, though, that the writer is an English journalist and broadcaster, so he's referring to UK English.


Wendy (who has a copy of the book referred to at the end of the article )

Great article, Laura. I so much agree with everything the author has said. I used to frequent televisionwithoutpity often and always enjoyed Deborah's recaps. And I have read in many, many places that discuss good writing techniques that it is OK to break the rules (some of them, anyway) for style or impact, but before you can break them, you must know them completely.

Wendy - that article much reminds me of a book I have - Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English by Patricia T. O'conner. Very interesting read, and at the end, she discusses some formerly proper ways of writing/speaking that have actually become obsolete.

My father gets the credit for drilling proper English grammar into my head. My particular favorite was whenever I would ask the question, "Where's it at?" or "Where's she at?" he would tell me "Before the 'at'". That one always stuck with me <g>.

I think that both writing and speaking English properly is even more of a requirement here in America, where we are not generally required by our public school system to learn second and/or third languages. It seems that a vast majority of other highly educated countries do require students to become proficient in a language other than their native tongue (often, ironically, learning English), yet here we maintain the arrogant attitude that our own language is enough.

If we are going to stand behind that vanity, we at least owe it to ourselves and to everyone else to learn and use English well. Nothing grates on my nerves more than to hear people who should know better butcher the English tongue. And while I'm a little bit more forgiving with errors in writing (only a little, mind you), it amazes me how people actually graduate from high school or even college but can't manage to form a coherent sentence.

/me steps off her high horse because she is guilty of making many mistakes in her writing, the whole proper tense situation of "lie" and "lay" being her Achilles heel. But she asks for forgiveness because at least she is trying to learn from her errors <g>.

Lynn

I've enjoyed this thread very much.

Oh, wow, Laura! I've never seen anything like it. Maybe my students aren't quite as bad as I thought. However, I thought I would share the following anecdotes with you.

I object to badly written student submissions not just because they look bad but also because it takes me two or three times longer to wade through a poorly written piece of work than it does a good one. The material might be there, but its value gets obscured by the grammar, spelling and punctuation mistakes.

When I was a teaching assistant in Toronto, I was specifically told by one of the professors that I could not take marks off for poor use of language. Why not? Because I was teaching geography and not English. That didn't, however, stop me pointing mistakes out.

One day, I gave a student a poor mark. She came back to me and complained. "You can't give me a low grade," she said. "You're not allowed to penalise me for bad writing." (Actually, I doubt she used the word 'penalise'; it's got three syllables, after all.)

"No," I said. "I'm not. But I can take marks off if I don't understand what you are saying at all!"

In other words, only when her mistakes had descended into gibberish was I allowed to do anything constructive about it!

More recently...

I still point out mistakes to students. Mostly these are limited to comments like: "Learn to use apostrophes!" or "Use the spell checker!" on their feedback sheets. (We don't return the original scripts.)

One day, I was standing next to the departmental photocopier, and I got into a conversation with one of my more senior colleagues. I vented about the standard of English amongst the students, saying that I couldn't see how they possibly expected to cope in the workforce once they had graduated.

His response? He told me that I shouldn't be worrying about it. His argument was that the people who would be reading their poorly written output would not be able to recognise the mistakes contained within because they would only be capable of producing equally poorly written output of their own!

In other words, quality doesn't matter, so long as the message being conveyed is comprehensible.

But what will happen when, as in the case of my Canadian student above, poor writing becomes a string of meaningless letters, neither spelled or punctuated properly.

Now, I know that my English isn't perfect. I do make mistakes, although I do my best to learn from them and not to repeat them. There are folcs around here who are better versed in the mechanics of the English language than I.

And yet... I also know that there are plenty of people in the big Out There whose writing is worse than mine.

I just wish I could work out whether I should be proud or appalled to know that.

Chris

As a beta reader who was fired for pointing out errors (oh yes, it's true ) I got a good laugh from that site. Apostrophes -- will someone please take back the bushel baskets of those things that were mistakenly given to some folks? They sprinkle them throughout their writing whenever there's an "s" on the end of a word and they're not quite sure whether or not to use one. I'm going to send this link to my review staff as a quick, easy guide to grammar.

This happened to my younger sister in her college english class! They were doing some sort of newspaper project, and since she had been sick the day the assignment was given, she had gotten stuck with a group of students she didn't even know, and they all decided that she would be the one in charge of putting everything together. She had the same result as you. Her stories were relatively decent (with a little help from me), but all three other group members gave her unreadable stories. The grammar was horrible. One submitted all of her stories in chatspeak. None of them cited references, and one even gave her a plagerized web site -- word for word off the website he had cited. Even with my dad's and my help, my sister couldn't get the newspaper ready in time, and the professor had no sympathy for her . Evidently, it was my sister's fault for being sick the day the assignment was given. I could understand if she had skipped class, but she even had cleared it with the Dean. So, Julie, this even happens in college. And my sister goes to a relatively well respected liberal arts/teaching college. Does that scare others as much as it scares me?

Mine, too. I can still hear his voice telling my sister: "Laura and???" "No, Jenny, it's not Laura and me, it's Laura and I!" Oh wait, that's because he's on the phone with her now. He wouldn't (still won't) answer any questions direceted at him unless we used correct grammar. Such are the perils of having a father who has a degree in english, yet taught high school physics for 30 years ! He needs to take his grammar agressions out somewhere . I know my dad's grammar drilling has paid off -- I now find myself cringing whenever my roommate refuses to use the pronoun "me"! Rachel: He gave this thing to Ashu and I. Me: ASHU AND ME!! HE GAVE IT TO ME, NOT I!

Yes! I agree completely. If English is the only language we know, why not know it correctly? Also, I learned that knowning English grammar really helps with learning other languages. I did better than anyone else in my high school Spanish class (which was an elective) because I knew the english grammar behind many things -- like when to use which form of the verb, etc. That's saying nothing, though, because I won the Spanish Award in high school, and could not even write a sentance in Spanish now . It probably says something about how bad the other students were.

I've been a teaching assistant for two semesters, and that was by far the worst incidence I'd ever seen. Most students do not have perfect grammar (especially because we have a very large number of international students), but this student was the worst. Plus, he was an American, not an international student. I would have forgiven an international student. Last year I taught seniors who were about to graduate, and their grammar, on the whole, is much better than the grammar of the second years I had last semester. I am wondering if it is an age/maturity thing. The seniors are about to go off into the world jobs/graduate school/professional school and have to present themselves to the world. The sophmores are still basically kids and have two more years to mature.

The only writing my students ever give my are emails. This really does a lot to form my impression about students because with a class of 128, it is almost impossible to get to know all of the students personally. There really aren't any essays written in my department, so emails are my only experience with their writing. However, many, many students think of email as an informal conversation rather than a conversation with an authorty figure. I emailed that student I quoted before the next day and saw that he had CC'd the professor on that email message, and I told him that if I were him, I would send the professor an apologetic email for making him read an email like that. In our department, there are absolutely no essays, but there is the occasional formal lab report, but, luckily, I have never been required to grade them. I've had to grade quizzes, exams, and informal lab reports. Thank goodness. I would hate to see what some of these students would come up with.

Exactly. I am in the same situation -- I don't have the best grammar in the world, and I do make some stupid mistakes, but I know that I am not even close to being the worst, and of my immediate RL friends, I am probably the most dilligent about my grammar. This frigtens me.

- Laura

In my experience, exam scripts are even worse than essays in terms of spelling, grammar, poor presentation and - because it's the only time we actually get to see it - truly appalling handwriting. Shudder!!

Oh, not all students are bad, and some have quite good grounds for being poor at spelling and grammar (for example, a mature student - 40+ - in my department who was brought up in care and barely had any formal schooling before he was pretty much thrown into the army at 16, and never got any formal education beyond training courses after that. His writing skills were fairly poor, but he worked at it and now he knows most of the rules and his vocabulary is at times better than mine). But it's the really bad ones, especially the ones who have been told over and over that the possessive its has no apostrophe and that 'as well' is two words, and who cannot even transcribe accurately, who drive me insane year after year.


Wendy

Most of ya'll know that I'm a creative writing major. I've got to tell you; the first writing class I took gave me a great appreciation of proper grammar. Every day we were required to have two stories from different students read and critiqued. I spent more time correcting their grammar than actually reading what passed for stories.

The grammar was cringe-worthy; if there *could* be a mistake, there was. Needless to say, many students weren't happy with me. They didn't appreciate getting back stories that had been red-marked with grammatical corrections. Well, my professor *did* say to correct the stories!

My grammar isn't perfect, but I was raised speaking English properly, and foreign language training helped me understand grammar better.

Laura

I thought I'd share the sort of problem I encounter at work, which is that people *think* they can write acceptable English, but clearly cannot. Here's an email sent by my work-experience student on the department's behalf to the entire college (without my consent as manager, I might add!):

Hello,

Fed up of slow starting PCs, then a solution has been brought, since the network is mainly using the Windows 2000 operating system, it does not provide a utility called msconfig, which Windows 98 and XP provides, this utility enables you to configure the startup process of windows, by configuring applications you want to turn on or off in the startup process.

REMEMBER! this utility only benefits the log in process of your computer, not when switching on your machine.

If you have this kind of problem, please email me.

Regards,

I cringed when I saw that pop into my mailbox. The student got told (very nicely, of course) that notices must be passed to me for review before they go out. It reflects so badly on the department - and I hate the idea that it could reinforce people's prejudices that IT people are anoraks who can only communicate with computers <g>.

Yvonne

I would have said something, too, Yvonne, but I'm not sure how "nicely" my feelings would have been conveyed. Well, that's not totally true ... I wouldn't have yelled. But I would have made it very clear exactly what I was upset about!

But then again, I once returned a document back to one of my employees (a recent top-tier university graduate) with the information that, "My time is more valuable than this. There is absolutely no reason for me to look at *anything* you have produced until you have gone over several times yourself and have had it spell-checked. When there are spelling mistakes in a document that I have already pointed out to you in a previous draft, you are simply wasting my time and I don't appreciate it."

Poor guy looked like a cowed puppy dog <g> but he fell over himself apologizing (it turned out that he had somehow hit "add" instead of "correct" in his spellchecker and all the previously noted misspellings were now being recorded as correct ) and he never did it again. (And yes, I made sure to compliment him as he began paying careful attention to his writing skills; being a manager is a lot like being a parent. <g>)

Kathy

Very fun, Laura!

Thanks for sharing!

Missy

I am a talk-correctly freak. In English, I do my best (and I believe that my English is fairly good by now).

In Greek... OOOH! As you probably know, it's a very difficult language. Just imagine there are 5 different ways to spell the sound of 'e'!! I've had a good laughing time reading some tests my dad has been correcting... written by kids 12-18 years old! Geez!

See ya,
AnnaBtG.

P.S.: I think I'm a bit off topic... Anyway.

That page was a pleasure to read. I have been an obsessive compulsive grammar freak since before I can remember. Of course, I still make careless mistakes sometimes or spell certain words incorrectly, but I can honestly say that I never, ever turn in a paper with poor grammar. The last time I spelled something incorrectly on a formal assignment was probably back in about fourth grade. Also, I refuse to use the internet lingo that some extremely lazy person with way too much spare time invented. It takes all of two seconds to type out "are" instead of "r."

Some of my worst experiences with grammar have come when I am forced to participate in peer editing. I have always found this type of activity to be a complete waste of my time because most of my peers have no idea how to edit my papers. Besides that, I never can actually edit a paper for content when I cannot seem to get beyond grammar mistakes.

I apologize for my little mini-rant, especially because I am so new and I am sure most of you will think I am completely insane, which I can assure you that I am not.
~Lauren

I enjoyed reading the link. However, it made me cringe. I am one of those people who has trouble with spelling and grammar. I do not remember most of the lingo used in this article.

No I am lost!

Analogous, isn't that three colors next to each other on a color wheel?<g>

What the hell is an intransitive verb?

Do I need a lawyer for this?

This made me realize that I don't remember much from my days in Catholic school. Thank God for spell check and beta readers. I always have someone proof read for me. I do not trust myself to understand all the rules of grammar. Unfortunatly, I don't think I will ever get "it". I would be upset, however, if someone thought I was stupid just because I have a hard time with spelling and grammar. My talents are in other things. I managed a 4.0 average at a Masters level and Highest Honors before that.

This is a wake up call for those of us with problems in this area. I need spell check when I am writing on the black board.<g> I emphasize the need to use spell check with my students. Also, I tell my students that they should always have at least two proof readers go over their documents, before they send them out.

The creative process of writing is fun for me, but grammar is pure torture. We need spell check on these threads!

Everyone has their own talent and purpose on this Earth. Judging someone by their flaws does not solve the problem. I think Kathy had the right idea. If someone does it wrong and you know how to do it right, than(crap did I use this correctly?)explain it to them. Maybe they won't make the same mistake twice. Even if they do, maybe they will be more aware of the problem.

Laura, (who still gets confused about affect, effect, then and than even with the explaination.)

What?

Must just say that I've been hanging out on a forum for another fandom lately and I am slowly being driven....even more insane than usual...by the amount of posts that are made using textspeak. I don't even read them any more. It makes my head ache trying to work them out.

Makes me appreciate this forum and you guys all the more, quite frankly. <G>

LabRat

Oh Laura, you might not be perfect with grammar but you definitely have a flair for comedy. Do I need a lawyer for that, indeed!

Well, I'm coming late to this thread, and I started to read through it before going to the links and was caught up short by Wendy's comment
She had the silly face, so I was sure she was kidding, so I went to the link that LauraBF posted. It's very humorous indeed, but obviously I need to know about this rule. The author says:
Seriously, FoLCs, when did this change? I was taught that it was either/or...i.e. Lois's or Lois'. So when I'm GEing I usually give the author a choice, and just make sure they use the same thing consistently throughout. To quote from our own grammar guide on the archive:
And two online grammar guides that I just checked both said that either is acceptable, although one did say that Lois's is preferable.

So when this amusing writer is saying this is the only way it is, she's just talking through her hat here, right?

Kathy

We've had this debate before, Kathy. People seem to get VERY intent on this one. Not sure why. (I do, however, know that Lois' is NOT incorrect! )

Lois' v. Lois's: Last Round

Thanks for the link, Rivka. I was AWOL from the mbs for most of July and there was a lot that I never did get caught up on - this poll was obviously one of those things.

Quoting from Schoolmarm in Rivka's link:
Well, I have found websites that apparently give incorrect information, at least that imply that to me. One is
The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation
which gives the example of
Ms Jones' office or Ms. Jones's office.

and another is Prof. Charles Darling\'s Guide to Grammar & Writing
which gives the example of Charles' car and then says Some writers will say that the -s after Charles' is not necessary and that adding only the apostrophe (Charles' car) will suffice to show possession. Consistency is the key here: if you choose not to add the -s after a noun that already ends in s, do so consistently throughout your text. - certainly I agree with the consistency part, which I mentioned in my earlier post...

I have seen both grammar guides recommended by writers here - which is how I discovered the URLs in the first place - and I have found them to be useful resources.

Quite honestly, I don't want to start up a big debate here, but if this is in fact a rule, yet these guides don't seem to include it, how do I know how trustworthy they are about other information?

Kathy

Just before I start World War III, I'm coming back to say that, yes, I was kidding! Mostly. I mean, I use Lois's and prefer it, and have seen more sources saying that it's the only correct form than that either is acceptable.

However... yes, the Archive grammar guide indeed says that, Kathy. I know that without looking at it. How? Because I wrote a chunk of that guide, including the Lois'/Lois's part. So, when I'm GEing or BRing, my practice is exactly as yours: if it's used consistently, I don't question it. After all, regardless of numbers on either side of the argument, it seems that a lot of people have been taught, and have sources to support their belief, that Lois' is equally acceptable.

Now, if we're talking alright or everyday in the sense of 'each day', or alot or definately... let me at 'em! <g>

And, while I'm here, I agree with Marilyn, Laura! You definitely have a talent for humour. But, you know, as far as those grammar terms are concerned - intransitive, non-restrictive clause and so on - I haven't a clue what they mean either. I was never taught English grammar at school. It is possible to learn correct grammar without knowing the technical language to 'explain' it, Laura, so don't give up. You're doing great anyway! Once you begin to learn what's correct, your grammar will improve and it won't matter a cent if you can't explain the difference between a transitive and an intransitive verb anyway.

I've always explained the difference between 'lie' and 'lay' on the basis that the first is something you do to yourself and the second you do to someone or something else - and get your minds out of the gutter! <g> You don't need to understand transitive/intransitive to remember that.

For those who were taught grammar and diagramming sentences and so on, the technical language does help, but for the rest of us it just excludes us, shuts us out of the conversation and makes us feel stupid. You don't need to know lots of technical jargon to use a computer correctly, so why is the technical lingo essential to using correct grammar? IMO, it's not... and there are plenty of people around who can explain or demonstrate correct usage without resorting to the 'techie-speak' of grammar textbooks, including GEs. And including, we hope, the examples shown in the Archive grammar guide. This is not to disparage those among us who are 'fluent' in 'grammar-speak'! - I envy you your knowledge. But when someone is blinded by jargon, as this website does have a tendency to indulge in, it doesn't teach them anything. And, much as I enjoyed the author's rant, I too started to feel my eyes blurring when she got too technical.


Wendy (all for making correct grammar simple <g> )

It seems to me that the growing acceptance of multiple grammatical forms (like Lois'/Lois's, or the fact that the formerly unacceptable use of "hopefully" is now in dictionaries, and a number of other rules that have become less rigid in the past 10-20 years) is likely a consequence of globalization.

It does mean that grammar books printed over 15 years ago, while not necessarily incorrect, are perhaps often more inflexible than more recent editions.

IMO, as long as a writer is clear and consistent, and knows when to use "formal" language (students who used to give me research papers full of slang were shot at dawn! ), it's all good.

I think when it comes to things like Lois'/Lois's we often tend to forget that, just like everything else, grammar and punctuation evolve. Nothing stays the same. Fashions come and go with this as with anything.

I've mentioned before in the past during such discussions that I was unfortunate enough to be taught grammar and punctuation at a time in the sixties when some pretty radical ideas and education experiments were going on.

The idea then was that in ten years we would no longer be writing, we would all be typing. (Yeah, I can't believe that one flew either) Writing would be obsolete. So what was needed was a form of punctuation and grammar which would save typing time. Brilliant plan, huh? Much in the same way that language was adjusted to cut down time when doing shorthand. Same idea.

As a result - just one small example of the madness - I was taught to ignore the difference between it's and its - yeah, cut out that apostrophe, that'll save a couple of seconds. It took me a long time after leaving school to figure out what the difference was and even then much longer to actually do it, since the habit of leaving it out was ingrained in me by then and I was always forgetting. For years I would type something and then have to go back and remember to insert the apostrophe where appropriate.

That's an extreme example of course, but it does illustrate that we're often at the mercy of the 'experts' in deciding what's right and what's not. And that probably in part explains discrepancies like your various grammar guides, Lynn.

LabRat

Friend of mine sent me this:

http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif

Laura

Well, Miz Rat, that sounds like a really bad time for learning about writing. I was teaching grammar and punctuation back in the early sixties but not what you described. Even though my grammar books go way way back, I still recognize that the language lives and changes (unlike Latin which I still regard as a thing of beauty even if it is dead). But we do have to have some standards and we ought to be familiar with what is considered the "best" even if we choose not to use it. One of my favorite quotes is from the playwright, Arthur Miller, who said that you have to know the rules in order to break them. The key is in knowing when a choice is appropriate. I'm still an old curmudgeon about some things and willing to be flexible about others. Is there anyone else besides me who still diagrams sentences to determine some usages? Is there anyone who still knows what I mean by 'diagrams a sentence'?

Jude

I've weighed in on the Lois'/Lois's debate before, so I'll just be brief and say I think it's one of those issues that really isn't clear cut anymore and the most important thing is to be consistent. When I first started writing fanfic, I used Lois', if I were to start today or if I were to write an original fiction story using the name Lois, I'd probably use Lois's. But I continue to use Lois' out of habit. I really don't care either way.

To regress to what we were discussing earlier - about the need to write properly if you want people to take you seriously - I had to share this email I got today. This came across on one of my nanny listservs.

No capitalization. No punctuation. And I swear to god, my first reaction was the sarcastic thought, "Yes, I love to refere someone to u." Not to mention the fact that she makes to reference to any prior experience or training. Why in the world would I send any potential work her way?

Now, I'm sure that if I were to point this out to her, she'd say that I was taking it too seriously and that this is just an email and that her ability to write is in no way indicative of her ability to care for children. However, I'd have to disagree on both parts. Because it's not "just an email" it's an email asking for job leads - this listserv is full of potential job contacts for her, and this is her first impression. Secondly, while her ability to spell and write is no way indicative of her ability to love or care for a child, part of a nanny's job is to educate and be a good example. If she can't be bothered to proofread her email looking for a job, why would I refer her to a position where she would be helping children with homework and setting an example? The example she is setting here is that it is okay to be sloppy and lazy. Would it really have taken that much extra time/effort to write this out properly? I mean, it takes a split second longer to write "you" instead of "u". And I'm not asking for diagramming sentences, I'm asking that she use basic punctuation and capitalization.

Actually, on that point, I wanted to respond to this:

You're absolutely right, Laura. The thing is, what makes me irritated or upset is not lack of talent, but lack of effort. It doesn't take talent to run spellcheck. It doesn't take talent to have a proofreader look over your writing. There are a lot of people out there who struggle with grammar (and with writing in general). I don't expect them to love it and learn all the little quirks. I just expect them to make it presentable if they expect me to read it. When I was an editor, I had a writer who was severely dyslexic. He really struggled with writing, and I always admired his determination, even though he was not one of my best writers. I didn't expect his articles to come in flawless. However, I expected him to run spellcheck, just as I expected all my other writers to run spellcheck. I never made fun of any of my writers or acted condescendingly when they made what I thought were stupid errors. In fact, in my evaluations, my writers wrote over and over again that even though I was one of the toughest editors at the paper, they loved working with me because I never spoke down to them or tried to take over their stories. But I had no qualms about refusing to read a story that had glaring errors. There were a number of times that I'd read two paragraphs, get up and say, "Call me back over when you've edited this yourself." After a time or two of that, they knew what was expected.

Most of the errors I deal with on a daily basis (either when I was an editor or just in communication with random people) is not a result of a learning disability, but simply the result of laziness. There is no one out there (over the age of seven) who honestly believes the word you is spelled u. That's just laziness. I don't expect perfection from people, and I don't expect people to know all the technical terms for grammar. I freely admit that I don't know all the technical terms. I just expect people to either know how to do it correctly or find someone who does to edit their writing.

Annie

Yes, I was, of course, referring solely to the UK education system of the time.

And actually, I have no idea how widespread this was. It could have been solely the Scottish education system of the time. Or even a locally based experiment. I have absolutely no idea. The one clear memory I have - other than trying to mercifully forget what I was taught - is of our teacher describing the bright and glorious future where writing was no more and machines did all the work for us.


LabRat

Laura, your link won't open for me.

And while we're talking about spell-checkers, I'm going to tout ieSpell again. I love it!

Aw, come on, I like it in the gutter sometimes.<g>

My sense of humor helps get me through the rough spots.

Thanks for the encouragement Wendy. Before I went to college, I spelled college like knowledge, sure, shure and to too and two were easily overlooked. I learned so much by having to write all those years of papers! Yet when I started to dabble in fanfiction, I made many common errors. There and their is a big one for me. Having beta readers correct my work, really helps me to learn. I still screw up from time to time, as any beta I've had will tell you<g>, however, I do notice an improvement. I try, but some old habits die hard.

Anne, it sound like you know how to deal with people. Compassion is important but you don't need to accept work from someone who doesn't even bother with spell check.

I do remember diagramming sentences in grade school. I had a very mean nun who scared the living crap out of me trying to teach diagramming.
I think I have a mental block because of her. I remember Nomulative and Objective clauses, I think. I didn't understand it all then and I certainly don't understand it now. The one thing I know for sure is that I will never send any writing or document of any importance out without having a few people check it for me first.

Laura

I remember a couple or years ago I spent an entire class arguing with three people about the spelling of the word tomorrow. They thought it was spelled tommorow. All three of them had been living in Canada for at least two years then, and one of them was even an American (and English was her first language), while I was living in Canada for only about six months at the time (maybe I did have an advantage because I had my ESL teacher drill correct spelling into my head everyday ).

When I took out a dictionary and showed them that it was spelled 'tomorrow' they said it must have been a mistake, or a typo, or something. And that was when I gave up my argument and started laughing (even though I should have been crying).

With the kind of people I find myself sharing a class with, I totally agree (see above).

When I came to Canada, I was stuck in an ESL class for little less than a year, and my English was pretty horrible at the beginning, though I could get by. My spelling was even more appalling. For about a whole term, my teacher would have to constantly remind me to capitalize proper nouns and beginning of sentences. I also quickly learned there was an 'e' on the end of 'because'. Maybe because I had a tough teacher is why I watch my grammar so much.

I remember though in Israel, in grade 2, my teacher would give us spelling tests every week, and I'd get a perfect mark on each of them. Maybe my spelling was perfect already then because I read so much (My nick name was 'the bookworm').

Julie (feeling very sorry for the girls mentioned above)

Ugh, diagraming sentances . We didn't learn it in school except for about 3 weeks in eighth grade, but my dad (the gramar enforcer)used to make me do it "for fun" from the time I was a little kid.

Now spelling . . . that's another story. I think I have a mental block on spelling. When I was in 6th grade, I was taking algebra, in 8th grade reading, in the able learners program, but . . . taking 5th grade spelling and barely passing . I don't know. I read a lot as a kid, too. I would devour any and all books I could get my hands on. Yet I couldn't spell.

I have a Master's Degree. I am getting a PhD. I still don't know how to spell. Oh well. I don't think it will do that much harm in the long run . Sometimes people make fun of me when my Matlab codes have consistent spelling mistakes, but that doesn't make my programs not run. Oh well. I like being the brunt of jokes .

- Laura

This is slightly off topic but Lab's comment and my long-held desire to say something has prompted me to speak up:

Speaking of typing...

I learned to type on an old-fashioned carriage typewriter, the kind you had to put two sheets of paper in to protect the roller and the key heads. And I was taught to always put two spaces after a period.

Once I started working in graphic design, it took my Creative Director about two weeks to break me of that habit, and now it is one of my biggest bug-a-boos. Word processors recognize periods and compensate by putting enough space after them that the two spaces are not necessary.

The first thing I do when I GE a story is find and replace all double spacings after periods with one space.

I know it is a really hard habit to break, but if you are a perpetrator of this antiquated habit, I beg you, please, try to stop. If I can convert just one person to see the light, I will have accomplished my mission here on Earth. I thank you from the bottom of my heart <G>.

Whew. I feel so much better. I've been dying to get that off my chest for about four months now. I think I need a shoulder rub. From Clark.

Lynn

Well, by the time I was in middle school (where I took typing class, which by then was called Introduction to Computers), we were using computers with MS Word, and they still taught us two spaces after a period. However, when I started taking journalism classes in college, they taught us to use only one space. In journalism, every space counts, and by eliminating the second space after a period you can squeeze in precious extra words. I get in that habit and it tends to spill over into everything I write. However, I'm pretty sure that most people still expect two spaces after a period in any document that isn't space sensitive. None of my professors or bosses (other than those involved in journalism) ever told us to use one space rather than two. I think it's evolved to the point where either is acceptable, but neither is truly right or wrong. If anything, two spaces is still prefered except in space-sensitive documents.

Annie

Annie and I are the same age, so I had the same kind of experience with computers and MS word in high school and apple computers in junior high school. I have ALWAYS been taught to use two spaces after the period. Even in college. I have actually never used a typewriter in my life, but I have always been taught to use two spaces after the period. Actually, especially from my Matlab programming experience. I think the more spaces I have, the better it looks. So that has carried over into my writing, too. I like the spaces.

I know you've GE'd two of my stories, and I really hope you didn't do this to my stories. I have always used and will always use two spaces after the period. This is a change that I would have really appreciated being asked about, because I would not have approved that change.

- Laura

I took a keyboarding class in high school, and they taught you to put two spaces after the period. <shrug> It's not something I even think about anymore. Just like adding a space after an ellipse for archive formatting.

Laura

I think I still use two spaces after a period. But you'd really have to ask my fingers, because at this point, it's not a conscious thing for me at all. I suppose I could re-train myself, but honestly I don't see sufficient reason to try. Sorry, Lynn!

PJ

Whoa, Lynn! Leave my double spaces alone, please! Word processors might put extra space after full-stops (although I've just tested this and I can't see the evidence - and it doesn't seem to matter whether you use a proportional or non-proportional font), but text editors don't and the fanfic archive certainly won't because all stories are stored in text format.

That said, I just went and looked at my own stories on the archive, and intriguingly, some have got doubles spaces and some haven't. Generally, it's the earlier stories which do, which leads me to suspect that the method of processing the story after it leaves me has changed, because I still type two spaces when I'm writing.

Hmph! Someone's being stealing my spaces and I didn't even notice! How dare they! <bg>

Yvonne

PS: Hmm...just checked Kidnapped!, my most recent story, and it's got double spaces. Weird.

As far as the Archive goes, it's really up to the author to carefully read over the edited story and any edits made by their GE and query anything they either aren't sure of or don't approve of, Laura. This is precisely why GEs return all edited stories to an author for them to check before it's sent back to the EIC as a final copy.

All GEs will have their own personal bugbears which they will edit in an assignment, based on their opinion of what is right and correct. It simply won't occur to any of them to point out this edit made or that edit made individually in the majority of cases - because to them it's just all editing.

Therefore, they really do rely on the author to tell them if they have a problem. It can then easily be remedied before the story is returned for uploading, since the author always has the final word on what is changed.

Two spaces, one space - it's not an easy change to notice, of course. (I'd hazard a guess that 99% of those who read the story on the Archive failed to notice it either ) However, unless you pointed it out to her at the time, after reading through the edited file, there was really no way for Lynn to be aware that you had a problem with it.

I guess that it's something you'll look out for though in the future and will bring up with your GE during the editing process, if they make this edit. That way there should be no problem.


LabRat

I've never really paid attention to how many spaces there were between sentences when reading a fanfic. (Or anything else, for that matter.) Interesting discussion, as I had no idea people on both sides of the issue felt so passionately about this.

For what it's worth, I always put 2 spaces, just out of force-of-habit. I understand that many computer programs (such as the one used on these boards) automatically take the second space out, but I type it anyway just because that's what my fingers want to do!

It wouldn't bother me if someone edited the spaces out, but then, I'm not sure my opinion really counts here. The only fanfic writing I've ever done were exactly 5 words on the 5-word Story Challenge, and a fun-to-write but totally silly Alphabet Challenge.

Incidentally, it wouldn't bother me if anyone edited my Lois' into Lois's, either. Again, it really is more force-of-habit than anything else. (Although I really do think Lois' is prettier. I think theatre is prettier than theater, too, but maybe I'm just weird that way.)

Back on topic - Like you, Labrat, I also went to grade school (aka "grammar school", how ironic!) back in the '60s, when there was a lot of experimentation going on. In my school, the "new" thing was to teach "sight-reading" instead of phonics. As a result, I am the world's worst speller! I wouldn't think of sending out an important or official document without running it through a spell-check program. How someone can submit a resume full of errors is beyond me!

- Vicki

I really don't want to make a big deal out of the double space issues, because it's really not that important in the bigger scheme of things. I also don't want to get at Lynn, because, well, I like her.

However, just to clarify something you said, Rat:

My understanding, and experience to date, is that GEs list or highlight all their suggested edits before making them so that they can be reviewed by the author and accepted or rejected according to their preference. This is still the case, isn't it? Or have I just been lucky with my GEs over the past 5 years or so?

I know there have been exceptions to this practice, where a story is so riddled with errors that it's just not practical to list all the edits necessary, but I didn't think this was standard practice.

Yvonne

Sorry to have confused you, Yvonne. Your understanding is correct. I was referring not to general edits, but formatting edits and should have made that clear.

When it comes to edits of grammar and punctuation, GEs will highlight those. When it comes to minor formatting edits, I suspect most don't but just make the change, because they see it as a tidying up exercise rather than a correction to the narrative of the story.

Much in the same way that before I send any story to the Archive for uploading, I format it in a particular way. Or before sending out an assignment to a GE I change any files submitted in other formats to a text format. These changes will on occasion over-ride certain formatting an author has chosen to use - such as indenting paragraphs or using bold, italics etc.

As another example, on occasion when GEing a particular story myself, I've often deleted extra spaces between words. Or deleted extra returns between paragraphs. I just make the change, would never think to point it up to the author, because it's not an edit that changes the story in any way.

However, having said that, if this kind of minor edits does bother authors, I can certainly issue a group email to all GEs to the effect that any and all edits - no matter how minor, formatting or general - be highlighted in future. That's certainly not a problem.


LabRat

Maybe I'm just an insane control freak, but I'd really rather my GEs point out every change they make to my stories, even something as simple as a formatting change. (And for the record, that doesn't mean that I want them to write <extra space between words right here. Delete.> every single time it happens. I'd just appreciate a quick note at the end that says something like, "Oh, and you had a couple of extra spaces between words throughout the story, so I fixed them.") For one thing, that lets me know if I have an ongoing problem that I can change for the future - for example, remembering to put a space after an elipsis. But secondly, I just like to know what's been done to my story.

As for it being the author's responsibility to look at the story carefully and ascertain if there have been any changes made other than those highlighted...well, I just don't think that's fair. My stories are often very long, and I edit them over and over again before sending them to the archive to make them as clean as possible for my GE. The last thing I want to when I get it back is go over it with a fine-toothed comb comparing it to an older version to see if there are any changes that haven't been pointed out to me. I spend enough time going over the highlighted changes.

For the record, I think GEs are absolutely wonderful and I've never had a GE that I think did anything less than a wonderful job. This isn't a question of not trusting them or anything like that. I simply like to know what is happening with my stories.

Annie

Laura, I’m sad to tell you that, yes, I did indeed convert all of your double spaces after periods to single spaces. And to be honest, I would no more have thought to ask for your permission to do this than I imagine an off-duty police officer might before stopping a convenience store robbery he happened to encounter while buying a cup of coffee.

Perhaps this is because I have spent the last ten years earning a living ferreting out such common typographical errors. Yes, it’s true. Many people, me included, actually make careers out of removing double spaces after periods and other such horrors before hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent to print what we here in the design and printing industry consider blatant, glaring errors. I would even go so far as to admit pride in my ability to spot a superfluous space at a clear ten paces.

Acting as the voice of harried graphic designers on screaming deadlines all over the world, I would refer you to The Mac is NOT a Typewriter, a neat little book that dispels all of the evil typing techniques that today’s modern computers have made obsolete. In fact, the author, Robin Williams, feels so strongly about the one-space rule that she places it as both the Chapter 1 topic and as the first bullet point in the blurb on the back of the book.

Don’t let the Mac in the book’s title fool you – this rule applies to PCs as well. You could also check out The Chicago Manual of Style which is an excellent guide for all things editorial.

As for the middle-school teachers who taught you this technique on word processors, based on what I believe your current age to be and working backwards as to when you might have been in middle-school, I would fathom a guess that even if these teachers had been brand spankin’ new out of college, they still most likely learned to type in the “olden days” and were taught that double spaces were a requirement. Perhaps they were never untaught this. I just don’t know. But I do know that once upon a time, doctors were taught that bleeding a patient was a wise thing to do. Doesn't necessarily make it right given modern knowledge and technology, wouldn't you agree?

I do see, however, how hard of a habit it is to break, especially for people who have been doing it for many many years. Like I said, it took me a lot of concentration to stop doing it and I had a good motivation - I would have been fired if I didn't. Since most writers on the board aren't faced with such consequences, I can see why they might not see any need to change their ways at this point in their lives.

Also, as a writer, I completely understand the ownership one feels toward a story. Nothing drives me crazier than to see my story posted with a missing paragraph return or an extra space between paragraphs or some other "thing" that I consider incorrect formatting. And because of this, I must respect each individual writer's preferences despite my differing opinion.

Out of that respect and in recognition that perhaps the rules don’t apply in fanficdom or on the internet where TXT files default to the horrid Courier font, I will concede your right to go AMA. Tramping down my typographical snobbery, I will simply return your missing spaces and resubmit the documents to the archive for replacement.

Yvonne, I will not change your double spaces to single spaces in the current story I am GEing, again bowing to your specific wishes. And I like you, too!

And going forward as a GE, I will consider this whole situation as a lesson learned. I will no longer take it upon myself to correct things that I feel make the story visually more appealing, instead focusing strictly on grammar and spelling. Because in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter in this particular arena where stories are generally viewed on screen and not on paper.

Sorry to have caused any frustrations. Please feel assured to know that they have been well repaid by many of my own.

Lynn

Edited in response to Anne's post.

Well, I don't know that I'd compare superfluous spaces to a convenience store robbery or bleeding a patient with leeches, but I do understand that you are only trying to do a good job, Lynn, and we all appreciate that. I'm sorry if you feel like you are being attacked, I assure you that is not my intention, nor anyone else's.

I happen to think that you're right - that there really is no need for a second space after a period. But I also think that second space is not the end of the world, and those who want to use it - either out of force of habit or because they think it makes their stories more readable - should be allowed to have it.

No one is asking you to forsake all editing of formatting issues. We all want our stories to be as visually appealling as possible. We're simply asking to be consulted. As I said earlier, my main reason for wanting to be notified of these changes is so that I'm aware of them. That way I can be alert for them in the future, making my future GEs' jobs that much easier. If you sent me an email with a note that said, "And I went ahead and fixed your spacing - sometimes you had one period after a period, sometimes two." most likely I would respond with something like, "Thanks! Sorry about that. I'll be on the lookout for that in the future."

I'm sorry this is so frustrating for you, though I'm not sure I understand why. But perhaps in the quest for fandom harmony we can all try to refrain from sarcasm and melodrama, especially when - in the grand scheme of things - the issue is so insignificant.

Annie

Yes, Lynn, I use this book often when I teach my Quark classes. You are absolutely correct. There is no longer a need to double space after a sentence. I'm also a graphic designer. This is considered a big no no in professional design. That doesn't mean that Laura, or any one else for that matter, has to like it or has to use it. I am just surprised that all the people who seem so adamant about proper grammar wouldn't also want to use proper format. I also learned on an old fashioned typewriter. I still find myself making the two space error once in a while. I would be thrilled if a beta fixed this for me. I am not sure why anyone with an open mind to learning new things would feel the need to hold on to something antiquated and no longer needed in typing? However, since I have an open mind myself, it would not personally bother me to read a story that still used double spacing. Once I am lost in the tale, the words disappear altogether.

By the way Robin Williams (female, not the actor) the Peach Pit Press author, is terrific. She also wrote "Beyond the Mac is not a typewritter" and my fovorite book by her is the "Non Designers Design Book".

Laurach

No Anne, I certainly would never dream of ranking formatting issues anywhere near the importance of robbery or dangerous medical practices, nor would I be so bold as to suggest that my profession holds any great impact in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry if my implication was such.

I guess I do feel somewhat attacked and frustrated because I simply pointed out something that is by many professionals considered a common error and was suddenly called on the carpet for some GE judgments that I made in all good faith with the sole intention of making the stories better. I guess I'm just licking my wounds a bit <g>.

However, I have hopefully removed what may be considered any sarcasm from my post as I don't want to cause a major war over spaces. I'll save that for something much more significant like the misuse of the semi-colon

I apologize if I've offended by my vehemence regarding this topic.

Lynn

PS - Thank you, Laurach! I was beginning to feel like a little lone voice in a great big forest <g>.

Out of curiosity, I did a little googling, and found:

One space, [i]except[/i] when using Courier-type fonts.

"Compensatory" vs. "non-compensatory" fonts.

Wow, he feels strongly, doesn\'t he?

Listen to the Grammar Lady.

. . . and LOTS more similar ones. Could not find a single one that recommends double-spacing (except with Courier-type fonts).



Do you know what this MEANS? I'm going to have to learn to type formal stuff with single spaces now!

I am just going to make a short reply, because Annie and Yvonne actually covered pretty much everything I had planned to say.

1. I am not a graphic designer. However, I do write scientific papers that have been used in journals. Certain journals require one space after the period for space constraints. Others require two spaces after the period to separate sentances more clearly. In other professional writing I've done, I have always used two spaces as a default.

2. The way I learned to type, it was one space after a comma, two spaces after a period. Plain and simple, a comma is a short pause, therefore one space. A period is a longer, sentance ending pause, therefore two spaces. And, yes, Lynn, you are probably right about my age. I am 23 and started school a year early, so I was in junior high in '93 and '94 and I was in high school from '95-'98. Yes, I did have some teachers who were older and learned typing on a typewriter, but I also had a large percentage of teachers fresh out of college that used computers and word processors.

3. I like to be notified of any and all changes made to my stories. I tend to be very protective of my stories, and I do not like any changes to be made without my approval. I know I should have looked at the stories you sent me to see if I agreed with any "additional" changes you made, but how was I supposed to know that you would have made any changes that I hadn't approved?

Sorry to be so insistent about this, but it is something that I have always been taught -- and especially with the courier font used in txt files, I really do like the asthetics of two spaces. And since it is my story, I feel that I should be able to govern the content and formatting of my story. Because . . . well, it's my story .

- Laura

Laura, I know exactly how you feel; I've had a couple of experiences with GEs making changes to my stories without asking me, and the first I knew was when I saw the uploaded version. One was formatting: the style of dash I use ( - ) had been changed to (--). The other was spelling: 'jewellery' had been changed to 'jewelry'.

On the other hand, I'm one of the Archive's longest-standing GEs and, speaking from experience, I can tell you that there are times when I will make changes to a story's formatting - and even changes to spelling, grammar etc - without consulting the author. Why? Well, one reason is because it's made clear to GEs time and again that we should not spend longer on a story than the author did. Now, that point won't apply to most people posting here but, believe me, there have been many times when I've received a story with so many errors that it would triple the length of the story if I catalogued every one - not to mention the fact that it would take hours, if not days. And the couple of times I did actually highlight every change, I got a note back from the author saying 'do what you like, I don't care'. Yes, literally. I don't care.

Other than the error-ridden author who doesn't want to know what I'm fixing, what else don't I flag every time? Well, repeated spelling or grammatical errors - I'll point them out the first couple of times, and thereafter will simply correct them. Also formatting problems - I tend to assume, for example, that authors don't want to be told that I've removed é and converted it to e, because the Archive formatting can't support accents. I might list this in my covering email, but it's one of those very routine edits which we do without thinking.

The first thing I do when I get a story is do a search and replace on hard returns - stories often come either with short lines or the alternate very short/long lines, and I need to get rid of all that. But it would never occur to me to say to an author, "As part of reformatting the story, I took out the hard returns which get into it in transit".

I also sometimes have to remove superfluous spaces at the start of paras, where an author has accidentally pressed the space bar before the first letter of the new para; again, that's not something I would feel the need to point out. It's a simple slip of the typing thumb, and not exactly something to look out for to avoid doing again. Likewise, if for 99% of the dashes an author has used, the formatting is like so--but for a couple it's like this -- I will correct the inconsistent ones. And since that just looks like a typo I certainly wouldn't include it as part of the summary sheet; if it gets mentioned at all it would be a passing comment in my covering note.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that there are things GEs need to do to stories which we might not think that authors would even be interested in knowing about - simple, routine formatting when we get the story, the occasional repeated error or very minor and obvious typo. And there's a balance here between giving the author a long, long list of every detail and telling the author about the important changes. And it's also worth bearing in mind that for every author who wants to know every single detail there will be two or three (or more) who will barely read the GE's report. That's been my experience over the years, certainly.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that an author has a right to a say over what the GE does to their story! Absolutely not! But I would simply ask authors to remember that GEs do this job for no reward. We're volunteers. Many of us are also BRs, and some are also writers. And we have lives. We want to give authors the very best service we can, nonetheless - but sometimes we might get it wrong. Or make the wrong choice in terms of that 'balance' I mentioned. I know that authors appreciate and value the work we do, and I'm sure you'll cut us some slack - over your missing double-spaces or anything else.


Wendy

As has been pointed out, the double-spaces are a result of typewriter vs print (hard copy) vs screen. When I was taught typing (electric keyboards, no computers for us!), they taught double-spacing. Then I took a journalism class, and I'm pretty sure they taught us single spacing. Now I really just don't care about spacing, as long as there is at least once space between the period and the next letter. Most of my typing is electronic anymore, so there's no hard rule.

However, if there is no extra line between paragraphs, and the paragraphs are not indented, I will not read it. I've read a few stories like this, and I stop after the first few lines. Books indent, so you know where the end of the paragraph is. Computers often have fixed-width paragraphs, so it's hard to tell where the end of the paragraph is without the indents or extra lines. My mind starts frying, and I have to close the window.

And yes, I remember diagraming sentences. I went to 7 schools in 5 school systems, and I'm sure at least two or three schools still taught it. I don't remember all the fancy terminology for it, though.

As far as text-speak goes, acronyms are fine for me. lol, rofl, bbl, stuff like that I don't mind, since some of it is action, others are acronyms. But I abhor text-speak. CUL8R, RU, stuff like that, I hate with a passion. I once yelled at a coworker for ICQ'ing me with text like that. I told him if he was going to tell me anything, spell it out. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

And I'm sure there's other stuff I missed commenting out on, but I'm done for now.

I have a couple of comments. It's been 38 years since I took typing on manual typewriters, so I obviously learned to type with two spaces between sentences. I think what you should do depends on the word processing program you are using. The programs on my computer (MSWorks and MSWord) do not compensate for periods. It may be the age of the versions, because my 18 year old son says that he hits one space on his brand new computer and it makes a double space. When I compare Courier to Times New Roman, I'd have to say that Times New Roman seems to need two spaces a lot more than Courier does. So I will continue to hit the space bar twice in order to get the proper spacing. But for those of you with newer versions, go with one tap on the space bar.

Now, I cannot let a "teachable moment" go by without a lesson. I understand Wendy's comment about grammatical terminology being incomprehensible to those whose educations left it out. Nevertheless, like any field, the jargon makes communication easier for those who know it, so I'm going to give a quick lesson in the basics of a couple of grammar terms that came up in this thread.

Transitive and Intransitive verbs. Fancy words for simple things.

Intransitive verbs stand alone. Someone does the action. Period. He runs. I sleep. They live. There is no direct object (the noun that comes right after a verb and receives the action) when you have an intransitive verb.

Transitive verbs cannot stand alone. You have to do the action to someone or something. There will always be a noun or pronoun right after the verb, aka a direct object. I read a book. She watched the movie. We like fanfiction.

Some verbs can be used either way. I ran a race. (transitive) I ran fast. (intransitive)

We'll leave linking verbs for another day.

Restrictive and non-restrictive clauses -- I have never liked these terms because I, the grammar geek schoolmarm, think that they are confusing to almost everyone. There is another term which is much clearer and we will use it here.

Essential clauses and non-essential clauses are much clearer, IMO.

Essential clauses do not get set off by commas because they are essential to understanding the message of the sentence. You need them for full information. Thus, one would write: "Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman who married two kings during her life." (The intended meaning of the sentence would be unclear without the relative clause.)

Non-essential clauses get set off by commas because they are not necessary for understanding. "The movie Empire of the Sun, which I did not see, was based on a true story." You don't need to know whether or not I saw the movie to get the meaning of the sentence.

What can get a bit tricky with relative clauses and commas is that what seems essential to me may not seem essential to someone else. So there can be some ambiguous cases.

That, which, who, and whom:

When the antecedent (the noun the pronoun represents) is a thing, that is used to introduce essential clauses. Which is used to introduce non-essential clauses.

When the antecedent is a person, you can use either that or who/whom to introduce essential clauses. You must use who/whom for non-essential clauses. Who is used as the subject and whom is an object within the clause itself.

Hope this helps those whose teachers neglected to teach terminology.

Schoolmarm

Thanks for that, Schoolmarm. I had understood that the difference between 'lie' and 'lay' is that 'lay' must be done to someone/something else, so I'll see if that will help me remember the difference between transitive/intransitive. I have to say that it does help when things are explained clearly and simply, as you did here.

And, yes, essential/non-essential clauses makes a lot more sense - provided I can remember that they're the same thing as the other. I'll do my best! Now, I've also heard a non-essential clause called a 'parenthetical phrase' - right?

I'm getting there with 'that' and 'which'. What I'm not convinced by is the use of 'that' when the antecedent is a person - there, I would always recommend changing 'that' to 'who/whom'. I have seen a couple of sources recommending that, and personally I think it looks better. Looking at Charles Darling's site now, though, I see he says that 'that' can be correct, but 'who' is preferable. And I like his quiz on who, which and that - it might be helpful to anyone still trying to figure out the difference.


Wendy

Yup, nice explanations, Schoolmarm.

However, regarding essential and non-essential clauses, surely the context in which the sentence appears must have a bearing on what sort of clause we're talking about? I only say this because of your examples:

"Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman who married two kings during her life."

The sentence still makes sense and conveys a lot of information if you remove the middle clause:

"Eleanor of Aquitaine married two kings during her life."

Is the sentence trying to say that she was a powerful woman because she married two kings? If so, then wouldn't this information be better conveyed by saying "Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman because she married two kings during her life."

If not, why is the 'powerful' woman clause essential to the sentence? Couldn't it be a separate sentence all on its own? "Eleanor of Aquitaine married two kings during her life. She was also a powerful woman." Why is the clause any more essential than your second example:

"The movie Empire of the Sun, which I did not see, was based on a true story."

I think I could make a reasonable case that the middle clause is just as necessary or unnecessary as the first example. If the context of the discussion in which the above sentence appeared was about movies which people did or didn't see, and whether or not those movies were based on true stories or not, then surely that middle clause is pretty essential?

Yvonne
(confused )

PS: Oops, just read your caveat about ambiguity. I guess the above comes into this category.

Here's a general question.

I was taught that when you join two phrases with a conjunction (and, but, or), you should use a comma if the two phrases are independent, that is, can stand alone after removing the conjunction. If the second phrase is dependent - that is, wouldn't make sense if separated from the first - then you don't use a comma. Here's an example.

Lois went to the store, and she bought an entire case of chocolate crunch bars.

You use a comma after "store" because you can break this down into two separate sentences:

Lois went to the store. She bought an entire case of chocolate fudge crunch bars.

That versus this case:

Lois went to the store and bought an entire case of chocolate crunch bars.

You do not use a comma after "store" because you cannot break this down into two separate sentences:

Lois went to the store. Bought an entire case of chocolate fudge crunch bars.

Obviously these are very simplistic sentences, but they convey the basics of what I was taught.

However, I've notice that some people do not use a comma when joining two independent phrases, so I'm wondering if this rule is flexible or maybe outdated. Or is it just a matter of personal preference and consistency - if the writer is consistent, that's all that matters.

Any answers from our grammar gurus?

Lynn

Yvonne, you are correct that context can make a difference in terms of whether or not a relative clause is essential or non-essential. The two sentences I used were taken from an English grammar book as examples, for what it's worth. In many cases, the pronoun that you choose and the use of commas or not will turn the clause into essential or non-essential if that makes sense.

Lynn, the rule about commas with compound sentences is basically this: Use a comma before the conjunction (and, or, but);however, you may leave it out if the two independent clauses are both quite short, i.e. Lois sang and she danced.

Hope this helps.

Ann

I want to add something to the discussion of that/which/who(m) clauses.

Schoolmarm has given a succinct explanation of essential and non-essential clauses (though I also have doubts about that essential clause example. ) And the rule she gave for using that and which is the rule taught in US schools today, though I'm not certain whether it's a hard-and-fast rule or merely a de facto norm in the US as a whole.

However, the older rule, which is still in use in Britain and other countries, is that "that" may only be used to introduce an essential clause, but "which" may be used to introduce either type. The commas, not the pronoun, determine which type of clause it is. Sometimes punctuation can be the only difference.

The mare, which won the Grand National in 2000, had a promising foal last year. [non-essential clause; evidently the reader knows from context which mare is meant]

The mare which won the Grand National in 2000 had a promising foal last year. [essential clause; the reader wouldn't know which mare is meant without it]

"That" can replace "which" only in the second sentence.

So, for GEs editing fics written in UK English, you should leave the second type of "which" alone.

Meredith, the rules that I explained are "hard and fast rules" in American English. There are definitely some major differences in the use of relative pronouns between American and British usage. As you say, in either usage, the commas are what tell the reader if a clause is essential or non-essential. The "essential-ness" of a clause is definitely in the eye of the writer as you show with your two variations about the mare. Context is often what should tell the writer whether or not to use an essential or a non-essential clause. I would add that for writers who are struggling with the decision that they should consider whether or not the information in the clause is necessary to convey the "essential" meaning of the sentence. If it's just an extra, interesting side note, the clause is non-essential and needs commas and "which" or "who" in the US. If the information is necessary to convey your meaning, then use "that" or "who" (and you may use "that" for people in the US) and no commas.

Schoolmarm

Sorry if this is off topic but this thread reminds me of a joke:


How many writers does it take to change a light-bulb?

I'm not changing a DAMN THING !!

Allie - LOL!

And Amen!

Lynn