Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Related Grammar and you

Annie and I are the same age, so I had the same kind of experience with computers and MS word in high school and apple computers in junior high school. I have ALWAYS been taught to use two spaces after the period. Even in college. I have actually never used a typewriter in my life, but I have always been taught to use two spaces after the period. Actually, especially from my Matlab programming experience. I think the more spaces I have, the better it looks. So that has carried over into my writing, too. I like the spaces.

I know you've GE'd two of my stories, and I really hope you didn't do this to my stories. I have always used and will always use two spaces after the period. This is a change that I would have really appreciated being asked about, because I would not have approved that change.

- Laura

I took a keyboarding class in high school, and they taught you to put two spaces after the period. <shrug> It's not something I even think about anymore. Just like adding a space after an ellipse for archive formatting.

Laura

I think I still use two spaces after a period. But you'd really have to ask my fingers, because at this point, it's not a conscious thing for me at all. I suppose I could re-train myself, but honestly I don't see sufficient reason to try. Sorry, Lynn!

PJ

Whoa, Lynn! Leave my double spaces alone, please! Word processors might put extra space after full-stops (although I've just tested this and I can't see the evidence - and it doesn't seem to matter whether you use a proportional or non-proportional font), but text editors don't and the fanfic archive certainly won't because all stories are stored in text format.

That said, I just went and looked at my own stories on the archive, and intriguingly, some have got doubles spaces and some haven't. Generally, it's the earlier stories which do, which leads me to suspect that the method of processing the story after it leaves me has changed, because I still type two spaces when I'm writing.

Hmph! Someone's being stealing my spaces and I didn't even notice! How dare they! <bg>

Yvonne

PS: Hmm...just checked Kidnapped!, my most recent story, and it's got double spaces. Weird.

As far as the Archive goes, it's really up to the author to carefully read over the edited story and any edits made by their GE and query anything they either aren't sure of or don't approve of, Laura. This is precisely why GEs return all edited stories to an author for them to check before it's sent back to the EIC as a final copy.

All GEs will have their own personal bugbears which they will edit in an assignment, based on their opinion of what is right and correct. It simply won't occur to any of them to point out this edit made or that edit made individually in the majority of cases - because to them it's just all editing.

Therefore, they really do rely on the author to tell them if they have a problem. It can then easily be remedied before the story is returned for uploading, since the author always has the final word on what is changed.

Two spaces, one space - it's not an easy change to notice, of course. (I'd hazard a guess that 99% of those who read the story on the Archive failed to notice it either ) However, unless you pointed it out to her at the time, after reading through the edited file, there was really no way for Lynn to be aware that you had a problem with it.

I guess that it's something you'll look out for though in the future and will bring up with your GE during the editing process, if they make this edit. That way there should be no problem.


LabRat

I've never really paid attention to how many spaces there were between sentences when reading a fanfic. (Or anything else, for that matter.) Interesting discussion, as I had no idea people on both sides of the issue felt so passionately about this.

For what it's worth, I always put 2 spaces, just out of force-of-habit. I understand that many computer programs (such as the one used on these boards) automatically take the second space out, but I type it anyway just because that's what my fingers want to do!

It wouldn't bother me if someone edited the spaces out, but then, I'm not sure my opinion really counts here. The only fanfic writing I've ever done were exactly 5 words on the 5-word Story Challenge, and a fun-to-write but totally silly Alphabet Challenge.

Incidentally, it wouldn't bother me if anyone edited my Lois' into Lois's, either. Again, it really is more force-of-habit than anything else. (Although I really do think Lois' is prettier. I think theatre is prettier than theater, too, but maybe I'm just weird that way.)

Back on topic - Like you, Labrat, I also went to grade school (aka "grammar school", how ironic!) back in the '60s, when there was a lot of experimentation going on. In my school, the "new" thing was to teach "sight-reading" instead of phonics. As a result, I am the world's worst speller! I wouldn't think of sending out an important or official document without running it through a spell-check program. How someone can submit a resume full of errors is beyond me!

- Vicki

I really don't want to make a big deal out of the double space issues, because it's really not that important in the bigger scheme of things. I also don't want to get at Lynn, because, well, I like her.

However, just to clarify something you said, Rat:

My understanding, and experience to date, is that GEs list or highlight all their suggested edits before making them so that they can be reviewed by the author and accepted or rejected according to their preference. This is still the case, isn't it? Or have I just been lucky with my GEs over the past 5 years or so?

I know there have been exceptions to this practice, where a story is so riddled with errors that it's just not practical to list all the edits necessary, but I didn't think this was standard practice.

Yvonne

Sorry to have confused you, Yvonne. Your understanding is correct. I was referring not to general edits, but formatting edits and should have made that clear.

When it comes to edits of grammar and punctuation, GEs will highlight those. When it comes to minor formatting edits, I suspect most don't but just make the change, because they see it as a tidying up exercise rather than a correction to the narrative of the story.

Much in the same way that before I send any story to the Archive for uploading, I format it in a particular way. Or before sending out an assignment to a GE I change any files submitted in other formats to a text format. These changes will on occasion over-ride certain formatting an author has chosen to use - such as indenting paragraphs or using bold, italics etc.

As another example, on occasion when GEing a particular story myself, I've often deleted extra spaces between words. Or deleted extra returns between paragraphs. I just make the change, would never think to point it up to the author, because it's not an edit that changes the story in any way.

However, having said that, if this kind of minor edits does bother authors, I can certainly issue a group email to all GEs to the effect that any and all edits - no matter how minor, formatting or general - be highlighted in future. That's certainly not a problem.


LabRat

Maybe I'm just an insane control freak, but I'd really rather my GEs point out every change they make to my stories, even something as simple as a formatting change. (And for the record, that doesn't mean that I want them to write <extra space between words right here. Delete.> every single time it happens. I'd just appreciate a quick note at the end that says something like, "Oh, and you had a couple of extra spaces between words throughout the story, so I fixed them.") For one thing, that lets me know if I have an ongoing problem that I can change for the future - for example, remembering to put a space after an elipsis. But secondly, I just like to know what's been done to my story.

As for it being the author's responsibility to look at the story carefully and ascertain if there have been any changes made other than those highlighted...well, I just don't think that's fair. My stories are often very long, and I edit them over and over again before sending them to the archive to make them as clean as possible for my GE. The last thing I want to when I get it back is go over it with a fine-toothed comb comparing it to an older version to see if there are any changes that haven't been pointed out to me. I spend enough time going over the highlighted changes.

For the record, I think GEs are absolutely wonderful and I've never had a GE that I think did anything less than a wonderful job. This isn't a question of not trusting them or anything like that. I simply like to know what is happening with my stories.

Annie

Laura, I’m sad to tell you that, yes, I did indeed convert all of your double spaces after periods to single spaces. And to be honest, I would no more have thought to ask for your permission to do this than I imagine an off-duty police officer might before stopping a convenience store robbery he happened to encounter while buying a cup of coffee.

Perhaps this is because I have spent the last ten years earning a living ferreting out such common typographical errors. Yes, it’s true. Many people, me included, actually make careers out of removing double spaces after periods and other such horrors before hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent to print what we here in the design and printing industry consider blatant, glaring errors. I would even go so far as to admit pride in my ability to spot a superfluous space at a clear ten paces.

Acting as the voice of harried graphic designers on screaming deadlines all over the world, I would refer you to The Mac is NOT a Typewriter, a neat little book that dispels all of the evil typing techniques that today’s modern computers have made obsolete. In fact, the author, Robin Williams, feels so strongly about the one-space rule that she places it as both the Chapter 1 topic and as the first bullet point in the blurb on the back of the book.

Don’t let the Mac in the book’s title fool you – this rule applies to PCs as well. You could also check out The Chicago Manual of Style which is an excellent guide for all things editorial.

As for the middle-school teachers who taught you this technique on word processors, based on what I believe your current age to be and working backwards as to when you might have been in middle-school, I would fathom a guess that even if these teachers had been brand spankin’ new out of college, they still most likely learned to type in the “olden days” and were taught that double spaces were a requirement. Perhaps they were never untaught this. I just don’t know. But I do know that once upon a time, doctors were taught that bleeding a patient was a wise thing to do. Doesn't necessarily make it right given modern knowledge and technology, wouldn't you agree?

I do see, however, how hard of a habit it is to break, especially for people who have been doing it for many many years. Like I said, it took me a lot of concentration to stop doing it and I had a good motivation - I would have been fired if I didn't. Since most writers on the board aren't faced with such consequences, I can see why they might not see any need to change their ways at this point in their lives.

Also, as a writer, I completely understand the ownership one feels toward a story. Nothing drives me crazier than to see my story posted with a missing paragraph return or an extra space between paragraphs or some other "thing" that I consider incorrect formatting. And because of this, I must respect each individual writer's preferences despite my differing opinion.

Out of that respect and in recognition that perhaps the rules don’t apply in fanficdom or on the internet where TXT files default to the horrid Courier font, I will concede your right to go AMA. Tramping down my typographical snobbery, I will simply return your missing spaces and resubmit the documents to the archive for replacement.

Yvonne, I will not change your double spaces to single spaces in the current story I am GEing, again bowing to your specific wishes. And I like you, too!

And going forward as a GE, I will consider this whole situation as a lesson learned. I will no longer take it upon myself to correct things that I feel make the story visually more appealing, instead focusing strictly on grammar and spelling. Because in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter in this particular arena where stories are generally viewed on screen and not on paper.

Sorry to have caused any frustrations. Please feel assured to know that they have been well repaid by many of my own.

Lynn

Edited in response to Anne's post.

Well, I don't know that I'd compare superfluous spaces to a convenience store robbery or bleeding a patient with leeches, but I do understand that you are only trying to do a good job, Lynn, and we all appreciate that. I'm sorry if you feel like you are being attacked, I assure you that is not my intention, nor anyone else's.

I happen to think that you're right - that there really is no need for a second space after a period. But I also think that second space is not the end of the world, and those who want to use it - either out of force of habit or because they think it makes their stories more readable - should be allowed to have it.

No one is asking you to forsake all editing of formatting issues. We all want our stories to be as visually appealling as possible. We're simply asking to be consulted. As I said earlier, my main reason for wanting to be notified of these changes is so that I'm aware of them. That way I can be alert for them in the future, making my future GEs' jobs that much easier. If you sent me an email with a note that said, "And I went ahead and fixed your spacing - sometimes you had one period after a period, sometimes two." most likely I would respond with something like, "Thanks! Sorry about that. I'll be on the lookout for that in the future."

I'm sorry this is so frustrating for you, though I'm not sure I understand why. But perhaps in the quest for fandom harmony we can all try to refrain from sarcasm and melodrama, especially when - in the grand scheme of things - the issue is so insignificant.

Annie

Yes, Lynn, I use this book often when I teach my Quark classes. You are absolutely correct. There is no longer a need to double space after a sentence. I'm also a graphic designer. This is considered a big no no in professional design. That doesn't mean that Laura, or any one else for that matter, has to like it or has to use it. I am just surprised that all the people who seem so adamant about proper grammar wouldn't also want to use proper format. I also learned on an old fashioned typewriter. I still find myself making the two space error once in a while. I would be thrilled if a beta fixed this for me. I am not sure why anyone with an open mind to learning new things would feel the need to hold on to something antiquated and no longer needed in typing? However, since I have an open mind myself, it would not personally bother me to read a story that still used double spacing. Once I am lost in the tale, the words disappear altogether.

By the way Robin Williams (female, not the actor) the Peach Pit Press author, is terrific. She also wrote "Beyond the Mac is not a typewritter" and my fovorite book by her is the "Non Designers Design Book".

Laurach

No Anne, I certainly would never dream of ranking formatting issues anywhere near the importance of robbery or dangerous medical practices, nor would I be so bold as to suggest that my profession holds any great impact in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry if my implication was such.

I guess I do feel somewhat attacked and frustrated because I simply pointed out something that is by many professionals considered a common error and was suddenly called on the carpet for some GE judgments that I made in all good faith with the sole intention of making the stories better. I guess I'm just licking my wounds a bit <g>.

However, I have hopefully removed what may be considered any sarcasm from my post as I don't want to cause a major war over spaces. I'll save that for something much more significant like the misuse of the semi-colon

I apologize if I've offended by my vehemence regarding this topic.

Lynn

PS - Thank you, Laurach! I was beginning to feel like a little lone voice in a great big forest <g>.

Out of curiosity, I did a little googling, and found:

One space, [i]except[/i] when using Courier-type fonts.

"Compensatory" vs. "non-compensatory" fonts.

Wow, he feels strongly, doesn\'t he?

Listen to the Grammar Lady.

. . . and LOTS more similar ones. Could not find a single one that recommends double-spacing (except with Courier-type fonts).



Do you know what this MEANS? I'm going to have to learn to type formal stuff with single spaces now!

I am just going to make a short reply, because Annie and Yvonne actually covered pretty much everything I had planned to say.

1. I am not a graphic designer. However, I do write scientific papers that have been used in journals. Certain journals require one space after the period for space constraints. Others require two spaces after the period to separate sentances more clearly. In other professional writing I've done, I have always used two spaces as a default.

2. The way I learned to type, it was one space after a comma, two spaces after a period. Plain and simple, a comma is a short pause, therefore one space. A period is a longer, sentance ending pause, therefore two spaces. And, yes, Lynn, you are probably right about my age. I am 23 and started school a year early, so I was in junior high in '93 and '94 and I was in high school from '95-'98. Yes, I did have some teachers who were older and learned typing on a typewriter, but I also had a large percentage of teachers fresh out of college that used computers and word processors.

3. I like to be notified of any and all changes made to my stories. I tend to be very protective of my stories, and I do not like any changes to be made without my approval. I know I should have looked at the stories you sent me to see if I agreed with any "additional" changes you made, but how was I supposed to know that you would have made any changes that I hadn't approved?

Sorry to be so insistent about this, but it is something that I have always been taught -- and especially with the courier font used in txt files, I really do like the asthetics of two spaces. And since it is my story, I feel that I should be able to govern the content and formatting of my story. Because . . . well, it's my story .

- Laura

Laura, I know exactly how you feel; I've had a couple of experiences with GEs making changes to my stories without asking me, and the first I knew was when I saw the uploaded version. One was formatting: the style of dash I use ( - ) had been changed to (--). The other was spelling: 'jewellery' had been changed to 'jewelry'.

On the other hand, I'm one of the Archive's longest-standing GEs and, speaking from experience, I can tell you that there are times when I will make changes to a story's formatting - and even changes to spelling, grammar etc - without consulting the author. Why? Well, one reason is because it's made clear to GEs time and again that we should not spend longer on a story than the author did. Now, that point won't apply to most people posting here but, believe me, there have been many times when I've received a story with so many errors that it would triple the length of the story if I catalogued every one - not to mention the fact that it would take hours, if not days. And the couple of times I did actually highlight every change, I got a note back from the author saying 'do what you like, I don't care'. Yes, literally. I don't care.

Other than the error-ridden author who doesn't want to know what I'm fixing, what else don't I flag every time? Well, repeated spelling or grammatical errors - I'll point them out the first couple of times, and thereafter will simply correct them. Also formatting problems - I tend to assume, for example, that authors don't want to be told that I've removed é and converted it to e, because the Archive formatting can't support accents. I might list this in my covering email, but it's one of those very routine edits which we do without thinking.

The first thing I do when I get a story is do a search and replace on hard returns - stories often come either with short lines or the alternate very short/long lines, and I need to get rid of all that. But it would never occur to me to say to an author, "As part of reformatting the story, I took out the hard returns which get into it in transit".

I also sometimes have to remove superfluous spaces at the start of paras, where an author has accidentally pressed the space bar before the first letter of the new para; again, that's not something I would feel the need to point out. It's a simple slip of the typing thumb, and not exactly something to look out for to avoid doing again. Likewise, if for 99% of the dashes an author has used, the formatting is like so--but for a couple it's like this -- I will correct the inconsistent ones. And since that just looks like a typo I certainly wouldn't include it as part of the summary sheet; if it gets mentioned at all it would be a passing comment in my covering note.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that there are things GEs need to do to stories which we might not think that authors would even be interested in knowing about - simple, routine formatting when we get the story, the occasional repeated error or very minor and obvious typo. And there's a balance here between giving the author a long, long list of every detail and telling the author about the important changes. And it's also worth bearing in mind that for every author who wants to know every single detail there will be two or three (or more) who will barely read the GE's report. That's been my experience over the years, certainly.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that an author has a right to a say over what the GE does to their story! Absolutely not! But I would simply ask authors to remember that GEs do this job for no reward. We're volunteers. Many of us are also BRs, and some are also writers. And we have lives. We want to give authors the very best service we can, nonetheless - but sometimes we might get it wrong. Or make the wrong choice in terms of that 'balance' I mentioned. I know that authors appreciate and value the work we do, and I'm sure you'll cut us some slack - over your missing double-spaces or anything else.


Wendy

As has been pointed out, the double-spaces are a result of typewriter vs print (hard copy) vs screen. When I was taught typing (electric keyboards, no computers for us!), they taught double-spacing. Then I took a journalism class, and I'm pretty sure they taught us single spacing. Now I really just don't care about spacing, as long as there is at least once space between the period and the next letter. Most of my typing is electronic anymore, so there's no hard rule.

However, if there is no extra line between paragraphs, and the paragraphs are not indented, I will not read it. I've read a few stories like this, and I stop after the first few lines. Books indent, so you know where the end of the paragraph is. Computers often have fixed-width paragraphs, so it's hard to tell where the end of the paragraph is without the indents or extra lines. My mind starts frying, and I have to close the window.

And yes, I remember diagraming sentences. I went to 7 schools in 5 school systems, and I'm sure at least two or three schools still taught it. I don't remember all the fancy terminology for it, though.

As far as text-speak goes, acronyms are fine for me. lol, rofl, bbl, stuff like that I don't mind, since some of it is action, others are acronyms. But I abhor text-speak. CUL8R, RU, stuff like that, I hate with a passion. I once yelled at a coworker for ICQ'ing me with text like that. I told him if he was going to tell me anything, spell it out. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

And I'm sure there's other stuff I missed commenting out on, but I'm done for now.

I have a couple of comments. It's been 38 years since I took typing on manual typewriters, so I obviously learned to type with two spaces between sentences. I think what you should do depends on the word processing program you are using. The programs on my computer (MSWorks and MSWord) do not compensate for periods. It may be the age of the versions, because my 18 year old son says that he hits one space on his brand new computer and it makes a double space. When I compare Courier to Times New Roman, I'd have to say that Times New Roman seems to need two spaces a lot more than Courier does. So I will continue to hit the space bar twice in order to get the proper spacing. But for those of you with newer versions, go with one tap on the space bar.

Now, I cannot let a "teachable moment" go by without a lesson. I understand Wendy's comment about grammatical terminology being incomprehensible to those whose educations left it out. Nevertheless, like any field, the jargon makes communication easier for those who know it, so I'm going to give a quick lesson in the basics of a couple of grammar terms that came up in this thread.

Transitive and Intransitive verbs. Fancy words for simple things.

Intransitive verbs stand alone. Someone does the action. Period. He runs. I sleep. They live. There is no direct object (the noun that comes right after a verb and receives the action) when you have an intransitive verb.

Transitive verbs cannot stand alone. You have to do the action to someone or something. There will always be a noun or pronoun right after the verb, aka a direct object. I read a book. She watched the movie. We like fanfiction.

Some verbs can be used either way. I ran a race. (transitive) I ran fast. (intransitive)

We'll leave linking verbs for another day.

Restrictive and non-restrictive clauses -- I have never liked these terms because I, the grammar geek schoolmarm, think that they are confusing to almost everyone. There is another term which is much clearer and we will use it here.

Essential clauses and non-essential clauses are much clearer, IMO.

Essential clauses do not get set off by commas because they are essential to understanding the message of the sentence. You need them for full information. Thus, one would write: "Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman who married two kings during her life." (The intended meaning of the sentence would be unclear without the relative clause.)

Non-essential clauses get set off by commas because they are not necessary for understanding. "The movie Empire of the Sun, which I did not see, was based on a true story." You don't need to know whether or not I saw the movie to get the meaning of the sentence.

What can get a bit tricky with relative clauses and commas is that what seems essential to me may not seem essential to someone else. So there can be some ambiguous cases.

That, which, who, and whom:

When the antecedent (the noun the pronoun represents) is a thing, that is used to introduce essential clauses. Which is used to introduce non-essential clauses.

When the antecedent is a person, you can use either that or who/whom to introduce essential clauses. You must use who/whom for non-essential clauses. Who is used as the subject and whom is an object within the clause itself.

Hope this helps those whose teachers neglected to teach terminology.

Schoolmarm

Thanks for that, Schoolmarm. I had understood that the difference between 'lie' and 'lay' is that 'lay' must be done to someone/something else, so I'll see if that will help me remember the difference between transitive/intransitive. I have to say that it does help when things are explained clearly and simply, as you did here.

And, yes, essential/non-essential clauses makes a lot more sense - provided I can remember that they're the same thing as the other. I'll do my best! Now, I've also heard a non-essential clause called a 'parenthetical phrase' - right?

I'm getting there with 'that' and 'which'. What I'm not convinced by is the use of 'that' when the antecedent is a person - there, I would always recommend changing 'that' to 'who/whom'. I have seen a couple of sources recommending that, and personally I think it looks better. Looking at Charles Darling's site now, though, I see he says that 'that' can be correct, but 'who' is preferable. And I like his quiz on who, which and that - it might be helpful to anyone still trying to figure out the difference.


Wendy

Yup, nice explanations, Schoolmarm.

However, regarding essential and non-essential clauses, surely the context in which the sentence appears must have a bearing on what sort of clause we're talking about? I only say this because of your examples:

"Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman who married two kings during her life."

The sentence still makes sense and conveys a lot of information if you remove the middle clause:

"Eleanor of Aquitaine married two kings during her life."

Is the sentence trying to say that she was a powerful woman because she married two kings? If so, then wouldn't this information be better conveyed by saying "Eleanor of Aquitaine was a powerful woman because she married two kings during her life."

If not, why is the 'powerful' woman clause essential to the sentence? Couldn't it be a separate sentence all on its own? "Eleanor of Aquitaine married two kings during her life. She was also a powerful woman." Why is the clause any more essential than your second example:

"The movie Empire of the Sun, which I did not see, was based on a true story."

I think I could make a reasonable case that the middle clause is just as necessary or unnecessary as the first example. If the context of the discussion in which the above sentence appeared was about movies which people did or didn't see, and whether or not those movies were based on true stories or not, then surely that middle clause is pretty essential?

Yvonne
(confused )

PS: Oops, just read your caveat about ambiguity. I guess the above comes into this category.