Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Challenge Póg mo Thón, Sara!! - Comments

Well, I have to admit that wasn't at all the impression I got. Yes, she's clearly grumpy, but she also seems to have no idea what she is talking about. Maybe I didn't get it because it seems so out of character for Lois to pretend she doesn't know something. To pretend to know something she doesn't, yes. But I've never seen her play stupid. So I was confused because if Lois spent somewhere between three months and year in Ireland, she'd certainly be familiar with KM. Besides, every American I know understands about the metric system. We might not all know the conversion rate, but we'd never go to Europe and and be surprised to see the speed limit posted in KM. So, I admit, my first reaction was to see this as a dig at Americans. And that impression was reinforced when I got to Clark's paragraph-long rant about what a weird country this is, including citing examples of obscure laws most Americans have never heard of and certainly would support repealing matched with a dig at our former president and our drinking age.

We'd all like to do away with stereotypes - hence this challenge. I know this is supposed to be humorous, but honestly I didn't get much farther in the story to find the humor, because I was too offended to read past the slew of American stereotypes at the beginning. Americans are no more ignorant, intolerant jerks than the Irish are supersticious druids. I'm sure this was meant as a joke, but I thought you should know that not all of your readers found the humor in it.

Annie, Laura,

I think you guys are reading waay too much into this. I didn't take it at all as American's being stupid. If anything we're very arrogant, but I won't get into that here or ever, for that matter.

Sometimes when Lois is worked up, face it, she lack a little common sense. More than likely, she's so worked up over something that's obviously a waste of time, according to her, that she doesn't remember or realize what she should know.

I think it's being a little silly to be offended by something that is meant to be a fun romp ... and please don't be offended by my saying that.

There's a reason why I don't post too often, never know how it's going to be taken.

This reminds me a bit of the to-do awhile back related to the cameo challenge.

If someone finds something offensive, I would hope they would feel free to say so. I, personally, did not find this story offensive, but I would never try to fault those who did by implying that they were overly sensitive. Although I did not take offense to this particular piece, there have been times in my life when I *did* find something offensive, and the last thing I wanted was for someone to accuse me of having a thin skin, and try to brush the whole thing off.

I really don't believe there was any intention here to offend. Perhaps the reason I was not offended was because it was "Clark" who was speaking. Americans are more than permitted to poke fun at their own country. Perhaps the reason others *were* offended is because the author, who put the words in Clark's mouth is *not* American? Anyway, that's just my guess, it doesn't really matter *why* I wasn't offended or *why* someone else was.

Better to admit that something, although not intended to offend, inadvertently did. (IMHO)

Well, no-one asked me, and I hope you take what I said in the spirit it was meant.

- Vicki

Edited to add: well my explanation of why I wasn't offended doesn't take into account Lois not knowing what KM meant. When I read that, it seemed strange that she wouldn't know, but it didn't seem to me to imply that all Americans are stupid. Clark knows what it means, and his reply seems to indicate he thinks she should have known, too.

I was trying to come up with a response . . . but Vicki beat me to it.

I had a very similar response to the fic -- and to the resulting kerfuffle. Honest reactions are just that, and are, I think, the whole point of feedback?

So while I was not offended, neither do I think that other people don't have the right to be.

Just my $.03 (inflation, you know).

Vicki,

They are free to say what they like, and I believe they did just that, as I am free to voice my opinion. I will not start a flame war saying who's wrong or right in this.

However, that being said, critism, unless constructive, belongs in email, not on a public forum. That's the stance that has always been taken on this board.

It also shouldn't matter if the author is American, English, French or Italian ... just because they weren't born or raised here doesn't mean they don't know what the canon is for Lois & Clark and how they might behave as Americans.

Wendy has written so many excellent fanfics ... in canon, what's going a little out of the character once in a while, and for something that was supposed to for fun, was it that much OOC to offend someone? I think that's just a little extreme.

Wendy was given a challange and I think she did a bang up job with it in a short time, once again proving why she's one of the best authors this fandom has.

Just a brief reply here, which I think will be my final in this thread.

It was absolutely not my intention to offend anyone, American or other nationality. This was intended to be a humorous fic, one which parodied stereotypes about Ireland. The lines attributed to Clark, which AnnieM mentions, were a part of the story which I actually checked out on IRC while I was writing: I asked Americans for suggestions of 'weird things about America' which Clark could use in dialogue. I did that precisely because I didn't want to run the risk of using anything which might be controversial. Now, I am aware that just because those Americans who happened to be on IRC at the time thought it was funny, that doesn't mean that all Americans have to see the funny side. The responsibility remains mine, as the author. However, I did try very hard to make this part of the story amusing rather than controversial.

Re. the kilometre/mile thing, it's true that in some parts of Europe speed limits are in km/ph. In the UK and Ireland, they're still expressed in miles per hour. All distances are expressed in miles in the UK. In Ireland, some are in kilometres and some in miles. I would forgive any tourist, from anywhere in the world, being confused by that.

As far as Lois knowing or not knowing KM is concerned, it seems to come down to whether or not it's in character for her, when she's in a bad mood, to be grumpy enough to pretend lack of understanding of something. Well, that's probably just an issue where belief is either suspended or it isn't. Edit: Having said that, I subsequently thought of a different sequence of dialogue which still indicates Lois's displeasure, but makes it clear that she does know what kilometres are. I hope that resolves Laura's concern.

The bottom line seems to be that it's not a good idea for me to try to write comedy.


Wendy

Annette,

I did not mean to imply critism to anything you said. I actually thought your post was quite tactful. I was trying to "head off at the pass" any possible future deterioration into a flame war, but I certainly don't think anything you said could be construed as starting one.

Your point about private emails is a good one.

And I agree, it shouldn't matter where the author is from. I only meant that sometimes things we say about ourselves rub us the wrong way when someone else says them. In retrospect, I shouldn't have said that at all. I didn't think this story was offensive, and I have no right to try to second guess why anyone else did. I should let them speak for themselves. I apologize.

- Vicki

I just want to say briefly, and for the record, that I was not in anyway trying to cast any aspirations on Wendy's talent as a writer or her intentions when writing this story. I said repeatedly in my post that I was sure that this was a miscommunication and a misunderstanding. Just because I was upset by something does not mean that I expect or want others to be. I'm glad that so many others were able to read the story without taking offense. I have not asked - nor would I ever ask - for the story to be removed. I was merely voicing my own opinion in response to a series of comments on the topic.

Annie

Oh my gosh! I never knew that my little post would do so much. I am sory so many people took it the wrong way. I was just trying to make a constructive criticism, the kind I really like to recieve about my own stories. Maybe I didn't phrase it well or something -- I am often awkward with words and rarely say exactly what I mean.

Maybe I was in the wrong because I do have a sensitivity about Americans and the metric system. It is something that I hear about every day and is something I notice almost everywhere.

I still think that this was a valid reason to be offended, but I am sorry to offend anyone by any of my comments. This is an issue that I feel strongly about, and I am not thin-skinned.

I am very sorry for hurting anyone's feelings and very sorry for anything I may have started. Next time I will just say nothing.

I am very sorry.

- Laura

Probably like many, I'm quite surprised at the turn this thread has taken; I wanted to post a slight clarification about my earlier post last night, but didn't have time, so I'm back today - with a few responses to the issues that are being discussed.

Laura, no need to apologise for voicing your opinion!! I should hope that everyone here knows that opinions are welcome no matter whether they're in favour of an author's choice or not. It's the basis of any constructive debate. Now, on to the issue at hand... well, I'm not entirely sure I can fully understand the offence as I'm not American myself. So apologies if I'm completely misinterpreting Annie's reaction to the couple of lines in question.

What I know for sure is that the point of Wendy's fanfic was to mock a few stereotypes about Ireland *through* Lois's vision of it at that very moment, in fact at a time when she is grumpy and growly about being forced to investigate something there (something which looks to her like it's more National Whisper front page material than Daily Planet serious sort of investigation). It's also obvious that it was never Wendy's intention to make Americans sound stupid or lack culture. All of us are aware that there are stupid people in every country of the world, and that nationality plays no part in it.

On the other hand, the point that Annie and Laura raised is that Lois and Clark are clever and cultured people - they are indeed. They're very open about the world around them - it's a requirement to do a serious reporting job. But this is precisely why I can't interpret Lois's line about kilometres as something serious (and from Wendy's post on the subject, it seems my interpretation is what she was getting at when she wrote that very line). Like I said in my previous post, I read it as a grumpy overreaction about a country where she has no wish to be.

I didn't take personal examples, but maybe if I do it will clarify what I meant. Imagine me in a maths class trying to solve equations (El, don't laugh). Here's what, after a moment of growly and unsuccessful thinking, I would say: "What's this stupid xy² doing here anyway?!?" or "2x = 3y²? What's *that* supposed to mean?" Or even on irc, when FoLCs start mentioning numbers, I go "Eeeeeek! Numbers. /me runs away" as if it were something that was completely foreign and frightening to me. Yet I'm not stupid (at least I hope not [g]), and I *know* what numbers, equations, Xs and Ys mean (El, don't faint); I'm just not in the mood to do maths and so I exaggerate my lack of understanding just to make a point about my non-enthusiasm as far as maths are concerned (El, stop laughing [g]). I know I do this sort of thing very regularly, which is why I immediately interpreted Lois's line as being the same sort of reaction.

So Lois has been forced to go to Ireland, a country where directions are marked in miles in cities and kilometres in the country, where cars drive on the left side of the road (though Wendy didn't use this difference in her fic, but she could have made Lois grumpy about it as well imho), where culture, customs, and even language (since many signs are in Irish) are different from what she's used to. And since she's in a very bad mood, she decides to be stubborn and purposefully play ignorant. She doesn't want to make the effort to adapt to her environment - she normally would, but at *that* instant it's her way to exteriorise her resentment at being there.

Annie, you seemed to be more offended by Clark's response and his description of a few American eccentricities. While Wendy asked on irc and got answers from American people, I can certainly understand that humour is so subjective that some people are offended by things that make others laugh. ), I have never worn a beret nor do I want to. I don't know anyone who wears a beret either. Some old people, especially in the countryside, wear some sort of cap, but it's getting very obsolete these days.
4. Camembert, accordion and the Eiffel tower. The image of the Eiffel Tower when Clark flies over to France to get camembert for Lois in Ordinary People, with a background sound of accordion, drives me nuts. I dislike accordion, the Eiffel Tower is all right, but it's certainly not the only thing there is in France, and Paris is certainly not the right place to get the best Camembert. [g]
5. Cooking. That chef who is supposed to give cooking lessons to Lois in S4 is French. Though it's a positive stereotype, it's still one that bothers my (admittedly very European) conscience: French cooking is certainly not the only good cooking in the world, so I'm not sure why it's so often taken as a frame of reference; in fact, French cooking can be pretty disgusting - trust me, I eat a lot better in England (take that, stereotypes! ).

These are just examples, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. Someone mentioned that it's quite possible that the lines in question were taken more or less badly because the author isn't American. I think it's very true. I don't believe that Sara, for example, was offended by Wendy's depicture of Ireland, even though the fic makes much more fun of Ireland than it does of the US (the whole story vs. a few lines). However, the fact that Wendy is Irish might have something to do with it. What I mean is that I'm a lot more likely to get offended by a stereotyped depicture of France written by an American or a Canadian or an Italian than by a French.

What I think is that most of the occidental countries (it's in fact true of all countries, but I believe that it's truer with occidental ones) develop an image of themselves that is idealised. While it emphasises differences between our cultures and probably helps in keeping them alive, it also gives us all a common point: we are all, more or less, attached to an identity that directly derives from our country. I was born and bred in France, and although I don't feel patriotic and I often call myself a European before calling myself a French, I *am* attached to my French identity, my language, my culture, and everything that goes with it. Our education, right from the moment we first learn to talk (and it gets worse when we go to school) encourages us to love our country - take history or geography: it tends to concentrate on what happened to make our own country what it is now. I assume (maybe wrongly - feel free to correct me) that Shakespeare is the most studied author in British high schools; here we focus on Stendhal, Zola, Balzac, Hugo and all the French classics.

So I believe that we're extremely centred on ourselves, despite our best efforts to open up to other cultures and to the way those other cultures view our country (with its qualities and its flaws). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what Wendy made Clark say about a few American weirdness is what Wendy herself thinks about the US - the point of view would be quite narrow if the US could be summed up by what Clark described in that couple of lines, and I can't imagine that anyone would read it that way - he was just making a point to Lois and her grumpy comment about Ireland by retaliating with the same sort of argument (so beware that what follows is a digression and not very related to the fic itself).

What I mean is that this education of ours can lead to difficulties in accepting that our country has not only great qualities, but also flaws, and strange customs/laws/food/whatever, which are perceived as amusing from a foreign point of view. It's hard to accept that something about our country can be mocked, and it's even harder when it comes from foreign people. I know I don't accept it easily when I see something said about France that puts it under a light that is less appreciative than I would like it to be (not always - I completely agree for example with people who say that eating snails is absolutely disgusting). The thing is, one little detail picked up here or there doesn't mean that the person who voices it considers that it's enough to define our country.

Also, and because of geographical/language/culture differences, we don't communicate enough between countries. True, what we do here in this fandom is a small step. I sure know a heck of a lot more about life in the US or in Italy or in the UK after having had conversations with people who live there and experience it as their every day life. But every country carries a bunch of stereotypes about its neighbours (in the US, French guys are wonderful lovers; in France, Italian guys are wonderful lovers; in the US, French girls are easy to bed; in France, Swedish girls are easy to bed - all big stereotypes which could easily be proven wrong). All right, I took the most obvious and outrageous examples, but there are other examples where I'm sure many people would be surprised that their representation is completely wrong.

Examples? I'm no expert, but let's take Ireland. I believe that in the US, many people wear green for St Patrick's day - Sara or Wendy might confirm this, but I don't think that people wear green in Ireland on that day. Not any more than they would on any other day, anyway. Or let's take England (not a country, I know, but it's what the French refer to in the following stereotype): almost everyone in France is convinced that eating good food in England is impossible... and yet I've never eaten as many wonderful things as I did in England, some of them being typically English and extremely delicious. There could be many more examples, and most of the time we're not aware at all that the representations we have of a country are stereotyped.

I realised I've truly digressed, though. [g] To clarify, my last couple of paragraphs doesn't refer to Wendy's story but to my own analysis of a reaction we probably all have at one point or another. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's nonsense to be offended by something you read - *not at all*! But I'm only trying to explain why I believe we react in that way at times, why some subjects are controversial among ourselves. And it's of course entirely just my humble opinion.

Kaethel (who truly hopes she hasn't offended anyone)

Okay. This post was originally just to respond to a little challenge, but I just read Kae's post, and a few things I'd like to clarify:-

Of course I wasnt! I mean, there was a lot of stuff in it about that I could take as an insult - like the fact that 'Aisling' gives Clark directions in a very round-about way, mostly depending on pubs, that there are numerous references to the state of the roads, the way she spoke, that really made me blush, because I could understand it all perfectly <g>. And, for goodness sake - casting me as the druid's girlfriend???? <g>

But the facts are that a) I was well aware that this was not going to be a 'serious' fanfic, given the nature of the challenge and the ribbing I got on IRC when they spotted it <g> b) As Kae said, because Wendy was an Irish person I took it easier:- because I know that she knows that Ireland really isnt filled with Druids and Leprechauns and everything....and c), probably the most important one - most of the stuff she said was true :p . The roads are awful, we are right in the middle of nowhere, the tackiness does come into play, and girls really do set stupid dares to guys who want to ask them out... trust me, I know!

I really was The most I ever wear on St. Patrick's Day is a small little shamrock brooch saying Ireland on it - and even that is regarded as 'tacky'.

I hope I didnt upset anybody with these responses. That's just how I feel - I'm not saying that I'm necessarily right.

Just one thing I have to say here:- Wendy, you seriously creeped me out with all the references to Newport, potholes, Shannon Airport, the Nenagh Guardian and Paddy McCarthy's farm... I went to school in Newport, my front bike-tyre was blown out by a pothole ten minutes before I read your fic, Shannon Airport really is about 1hr and 45mins away from here, I have a copy of the Nenagh Guardian in front of me:- I know the editor personally, having been employed by him on more than one occasion for the summer, and there really is a guy named Paddy McCarthy on my road...

Unfortunately for you, I happen to have a very good understanding of my native language, so your ‘evil’ little challenge was as simple as pie

It is a long road which has no turning.

There are no unmixed blessings in life.

Live, horse, and you will get grass.

Well, I’d say somebody will think twice before trying to catch me out again…

So we have one response... Kae, you're not forfeiting the challenge, are you? The clock is ticking...

Sara [who is feeling just a little anxious now...]

Just to comment, I thought the little fic was hilarious, and I'm as American as they get. I found nothing offensive in it, at all. I'm only sorry I don't understand any of the Irish, considering that a good chunk of my ancestry comes from Ireland (unless someone informs me that Riley is actually an Italian name, or something...)

Nan

Okay, a few people have asked me if I could provide a translation or glossary for the Irish phrases in this thing. So here follow excerpts from the story, followed by the translations.


So I can say Dia Dhuit and go raibh míle maith agat and slán leat and coladh sábh, but I don’t remember much more than that.”

Clark can say hello (literally, God be with you), and thank you, and goodbye (safety go with you) and sleep well.


“Céad míle fáilte romhat!” she carolled.

She’s welcoming them: literally, a hundred thousand welcomes to you.


“Thank you very much, Aisling,” he said politely.

“Beidh fáilte romhat,” she said perkily

You’re welcome.


“Agus go n’éirí an bother leat.”

Literally: may the road rise with you; figuratively, have a safe journey. This is part of a well-known Irish saying which goes something like: May the road rise with you (or ‘rise up to meet you’), and may you be safe home before the Devil knows you’ve left. (Sara, can you remember the exact saying?)


“Ciúin!”

Silence


Ní dhéanfach an saol capall rás d'asal!”

One of the weird Irish sayings which don’t appear to bear much relevance to modern life, but we make them work for their living anyway. Literally: you can’t make a racehorse out of a donkey.


“Sara!” the druid yelled. “It’s not his fault, a mhuirnín! He didn’t know!”

More or less: my dear one


“Irish for yes.” He waved his hand towards the arrangement of stones, and to Sara and her would-be boyfriend. “You know, all this reminds me of a saying Declan taught me... something like ‘is ait an mac a’saol, agus is mó cor agus iompair a bhaineann sé as duine ó bhais go bhás.’ Something like that, anyway.”

As Clark says: life is strange, and it’s many a twist and turn it takes out of a person from birth to death.


The postscript for Sara:
Is fada an bóthar nach mbíonn casadh ann, agus níl aon suáilce gan a duáilce féin. Mair, a chapaill, agus gheobhaidh tú féar.


There, I just slung together a few ‘nonsense’ proverbs, which she translated perfectly - did you visit the same proverbs website as I did, Sara? It’s a long road which has no turning, and there are many mixed blessings in life. Live, horse, and you will get grass.

Edit: Completely forgot to translate the title!! Póg mo thón means kiss my... butt. A popular Irish expression! And if anyone's ever heard of the pop group The Pogues, that's where their name comes from. <g>


Now, on to the phrases some people managed to cobble together in their comments. (I’m impressed!)

Elena wrote:
Bíonn chuile dhuine lách go dtéann bó ina gharraí.

Everyone is sociable until a cow invades his garden.


And here's a saying I'd have used in the story if I'd come across it in time:
which means May the cat eat you, and may the devil eat the cat. Can just see Sara saying that to Superman! <g>


I think that’s it! And go raibh míle, míle maith agat go léir! (Thank you all very, very much!)


Wendy

I'm aware my posts in this topic might have been misunderstood so I would like to clarify .

I honestly didn't mean that constructive criticism and opinions weren't welcome on the boards, they are very welcome.

In any event, I'm aware that as the boards owner, what I say can be taken as official boards policy, therefore that it's harder to post my own opinion without creating a misunderstanding.

I apologize for any hurt feelings, as it was not my intent.

Wow. I read Wendy's story (and lol'd!), then came in here to read the comments, and wow. Even more verbose than the story itself!

Seriously, I thought it was a great story, and I loved it. Though I *am* going to have to look up some of the those stupid laws, especially the monster one. Thank you for translating all of the sayings. The only Irish phrases I knew before today was pog ma thon and slante (I know it's not spelled right, but it's too early to use accents and look up spellings, sorry!). Now if only I can learn how to say them, I can surprise my mother-in-law (1st gen irish-american, I think, maybe 2nd)

Now, where's Kae's story?

Wendy,

Wonderful story and great humor. I loved Lois' gripping about Ireland and enjoyed Clark's retort about the US even more. (Collecting stupid laws is a hobby of mine ) The ending to the story was perfect. You should write more humorous stories!

~Nqoire