Lois & Clark Forums Forums Fan Fiction Fanfic Challenge Cameo Challenge Concern

Okay, so far we've had Wendy branded as Lex's sister and her huge output of fanfic explained with sufficiently sinister undertones. We've also had Kaethel undergo a change of gender and a distinct downgrade in profession.

While both of these ladies took the well-intentioned humor in stride, I would like to remind all of you that that there might be FoLCs out there with more sensitive skins. This is supposed to be fun, after all. So, please: while most FoLCs obviously take great pleasure in their cameos (I know I'm enjoying it!), let's try to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. Perhaps, if you plan to feature a FoLC in a less flattering role, you could clear it with him or her first? Jill and Wendy might have done so, for all I know.

I'm not trying to make myself arbiter of this folder or any other. I'm just trying to head off a potential complication before it has time to germinate in the first place.

Hazel

True...but I would also like to tell people who might think to put me in one of their stories not to worry and to be as offensive as they want.
Have fun, guys!


El

Well, Hazel, while I understand that it's certainly tricky to do with FoLCs you don't know (and personally I wouldn't do it for reasons you stated above), I really want to clarify that I didn't take offense with Wendy's... um... interesting choices for me. I was laughing too hard for that.

Seriously, I think that authors know that when they include someone into a humorous cameo, they can give evil roles to people they know will not get upset. When two people are friends and very much used to teasing each other constantly, there's no risk.

Kaethel

Ok here my two cents:

I guess if someone feel offense by this wonderful and Funny new genre deserve to be offended even more!!!!

There is no meaning of hurt people feeling but, hell, it's funny! You (a general you, no person related) was feeling hurt from something like cameo-fics well you seriously have a problem. (No offense) use it, laugh hard about it and move on.

look what people 'blame' you for and work on it.

Even if I don't see any blame in them. JUST WONDERFUL GREAT NEAT FUN!

WTG guys!!!!
Chiara
We want more!!!!

i wouldn't think it'd be too much of a problem if the cameo is written quite obviously out of character, like kae's write-in as an evil pimp. it's not flattering, but as long as it's obviously all in good fun (and, as hazel pointed out, as long as you know the person well enough to know that good fun will be taken as good fun), it should be fine.

otoh, when you write someone more in character, that's where you start running into potential problems.

it's like with role-playing games (like dungeons and dragons). i was told by an experienced gamer that you should never create an RPG character too similar to yourself. if you do, you run the risk that when another character (who may say or do things that the person playing the character never would) criticizes your character or something (role-playing sessions often involve character dynamics, including arguments and such. some even get into romantic relationships between characters) you might take it personally.

cameos run the same risk.

for example, i have a head filled with random facts and trivia. i really enjoy being able to help people. i also have a somewhat overinflated and fragile ego (the two go neatly hand-in-hand).

put that all together, and you get someone who tends to jump in a little quickly with answers to random questions (i know random stuff, i love being helpful, and i also kind of like being able to demonstrate "see? i knew that!").

now, sometimes -- whether because of a jumbled memory, an incorrect source, an incorrect educated guess, or whatever else -- i get things wrong. of course, that's pretty rare...

so, anyway, wendy wrote me in to her story as a source who had called in a tip to clark. as it happened, it was a tip that didn't pan out. so, there it was, the line "sometimes hatman gets it wrong."

i knew the whole story was just meant in good fun and all, but it didn't stop a little niggling worry from the more fragile part of that overinflated ego from wondering if it had been a subtle jab at the way i tend to jump in and answer questions.

now, to be clear, this is just an example. it was just a niggling worry, nothing major. i'm not trying to complain or criticize or anything. what i'm trying to say is that a similar issue with a larger flaw could have caused problems.

the other thing is that when you write in-character cameos, you can end up focusing on the wrong aspect of the person you're writing.

take annie, for example. she hasn't said anything, but i've noticed that her cameos have all included a reference to alcohol. i've also noticed that on irc, there tend to be drunken annie jokes and references.

annie does get drunk from time to time, and she is willing to laugh about herself being drunk. she's also a happy drunk, which makes her really fun to hang out with and get emails from when she's drunk.

there's a lot more to her, though. she's a good responsible friend, a great editor, a talented writer, a reliable source of information on a variety of subjects, a great sounding board (especially on questions of moral grey areas), and she's fun to hang out with when sober (and she is sober more often than drunk).

seems to me that people have been losing sight of that with all the drunken annie references. it may be fun to joke about from time to time, but i'd think it'd be a bit much after a while.

so, basically, to sum up: be careful with how you write your cameos, especially if they're realistic.

Paul

Well, I just want to pop in with my two cents worth. I'm in no way offended by the "drunken Annie" references in the cameos. I thought they were hysterical. I thought Jill's reference to the blue cup was so funny I cut and pasted it into an email to my non-Folc best friend, who also thought it was hilarious. It's funny to me because I know I'm ridiculous when drunk and also because I know people are joking. I have no doubt that I'm close enough to a number of Folcs, that if they honestly believed I had a problem with alcohol, that they would plan some sort of intervention. But clearly they know I'm fine, and just enjoy getting silly once in awhile. Besides, if I didn't want people to know about my drunken antics, they wouldn't. They only know because I've told them. I don't mind poking fun of myself.

Cameos are just fun and games, I really hope there aren't people getting upset about them. Really, it's flattery that the author includes you, and if they feel comfortable enough to poke fun at you, it must mean they consider you a pretty good friend. All in all, I'm kinda glad people are poking fun at me.

Annie

It seems I wasn't clear enough, so I'll try again.

I never implied that Wendy's and Jill's stories are wrong or mean-minded. Obviously, both Wendy and Jill knew their respective, er, victims well enough to poke gentle fun without the poke being too painful.

OTOH, Paul's personal account does show that a person can wound, even without realizing it. That's all I'm asking, really: that the people who take up this challenge keep in mind that featured cameos might hurt. I haven't been offended yet, and I daresay I won't be in the future. But each person has his or her own limits, and it would be right to respect that.

I did want to address this, though: Chiara, with all due respect to *your* feelings, FoLCdom has, thank goodness, never worked that way. I don't think it's fair to respond by telling anyone that feels hurt that it's their fault for being so sensitive. I'd much prefer to err on the side of caution than dismiss any objections by saying, "Well, you should know it's a joke. Don't take things so seriously."

Rule of thumb to live by: Assume the other person is super-sensitive. Even if you're wrong, no harm done.

Hazel, who is enjoying the challenges, and wouldn't have proposed the challenge in the first place if she disliked it.

Well, first, I want to say that I don't think anyone misunderstood you, Hazel. I didn't see anyone saying anything that led me to believe they thought you didn't like the cameo fics or were offended by them. I think we all understood that you were just looking after the more sensitive folcs out there. But I think some of us (in particular, El and I) were just trying to point out that the authors who had composed stories so far were, in fact, being careful. They targetted people that they are good friends with and that they knew would find the ribbing funny rather than offensive.

I do want to address this though:

My first reaction here was to bristle, since it really upsets me when people try to tell me how to live my life. But once I got over that, it occurred to me that this might not always be the best rule of thumb for everyone anyway. If everyone lived by this, Wendy and Jill would have had to assume that I'm supersensitive about my drinking, and they would never have written the cameos that I thought were hysterical. I think it's more prudent to know your audience (whether it's audience in the traditional sense, or just who you are talking to/about in real life) and to reasonably assess if they would be offended by what you are about to write/say. I refuse to walk on eggshells for the rest of my life. But that's just me. I'm not going to try to tell anyone else how to live. If your theory works for you, that's great.

I just wanted to say that I agree with Annie completely. I think it is all a matter of who the subject of the cameo is. If you know that a person will be offended, then it is better not to do it.

But I also really agree with the knowing your audience point. A lot depenends on who you are writing for/speaking to. In an acedemic situation I would not mention to my class that I have once had a (ok more than just one) beer with a duck on the bottle and made up a song about it . But in a cameo fic that is supposed to be funny, I might use it. I agree that it all depends on your audience rather than a blanket statement about always erring on the side of caution.

- Alicia

Well, I'm not the list mom or even the folder mom, so obviously I'm not in charge here. I did emphasize that I didn't see a problem with Jill's story, or Wendy's; I just wanted to urge caution in future. Didn't mean to sound sanctiminious, if I spelled that correctly. I should have said that I find it a happier way to live. Less trodden toes. I did say "assume," though, which means that when you find out otherwise, it's usually okay.

No matter.

Hazel

Cameos can be a lot of fun, but they can be mean as well.

Hazel, your comments in this thread were prompted by a concern for the feelings of people who may be portrayed in cameos. It was a thoughtful thing to do.

Carol

Even unintentional cameos can be dangerous. <g> I've got a *lot* of original characters running around my WIP because the subject requires a large supporting cast. I've tried to avoid putting the names of FoLCs in there, but I haven't always succeeded, and some of the results have been... interesting.

BrightFeather (who's currently hiding from one of her beta readers for using their real name because it was what she needed and swears that it wasn't *meant* to be a cameo!)

LOL, Laura. It's funny when that "original" character name turns out to belong to our long lost best friend from second grade, isn't it?

Or there's always Debby Stark's solution from her Dawning series. She'd said that she'd had to come up with so many characters that she ran out of ideas, so she started taking FoLC names and altering them slightly. I always thought that was cute. Hmm, wonder if any of them had a problem with their "cameos"? I know the good guy/bad guy status of "Kathleen Browne" was up the air when she stopped writing. Always wondered how I turned out. <g>

Kathy

Well, Debby asked if she could use me (I think I ended up in Part 8 as a villainous bank manager or something but at least I got to come on to Clark! ) -- and she altered my name a bit, like she did with Kathy's.

(I first contacted Debby after reading the cliffhanger at the end of part six. As I recall, the email read: "Dear Debby, Don't take this the wrong way, but I hate you." She didn't take it the wrong way )

And sometimes unintended cameos get awkward, yes. I was in the middle of writing and posting Hearts Divided, with a supporting character named Brenda, at the time that a real-life Brenda became the object of much controversy. Don't know if the readers were much distracted, but I greatly regretted the coincidence.

PJ